Your ideas about money and wealth are shaped by the messages you heard in early life which created your persona around success. There are four archetypes that define your relationship with money and play out unconsciously until you make them conscious. In this episode, we explore:
What is Your Wealth Archetype?
Welcome to CreativeMind Soul Sessions with Debra Berndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of CreativeMind. Explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience in a deep but practical way. Let's begin.
Debra Maldonado 00:25
Hello, welcome to another episode of Soul Sessions with CreativeMind, Debra and Rob here to enlighten your minds and free your soul. We're continuing our series on how to succeed without losing your soul. Today, we're talking about your wealth archetype. What is that? What's the shadow? How to free your mind to create abundance in your life and not lose your soul along the way?
Robert Maldonado 00:54
We established last time that money is neutral. Although it appears to us to be a powerful force in society, it’s socially constructed, it depends on what we do with it. We're the ones that give meaning to it. If we never think about it, we are going on default mode, whatever we were taught about money or not taught about money, is what we hold in our minds. It's the way we relate to it then. Often people act out of this fear of lack. They feel like “I have to trade in my time for as little amount of money because I don't have a choice.” That's not a good way to proceed in life. Because if you're in lack, or if you are wealthy in money, but still giving it that importance, meaning that you fear losing it, you’re enslaved to it either way. It's not about having or not having. It's about how we understand that, how we approach that concept that we created regarding value and money.
Debra Maldonado 02:14
How did we get our ideas about money? Where does it come from? If we think about money itself, or anything in life, we have a personal relationship with the external world where our parents, friends, people, the idea of work, relationships, what it means to be a couple or to be independent. Money is also one of those symbols that we have a relationship with. It feels like it's this material thing that has a life of its own. But it's really a dynamic between us and this concept of money that is giving us our experience of it. A lot of times we think everyone around us is working hard for money, everyone around us is in debt, struggling. Why is that? Is it because the economy is shrinking, or everyone should be struggling and only the rich people get to enjoy abundance? We start to ask those questions of ourselves of what did we learn about money? How are we relating to it now? Through that questioning and understanding, we start to be able to see, maybe there's another possibility. Early in life, as we tell on many of our podcasts, we are unconscious, absorbing everything that happens to us, our ego’s deciding what money means, we're hearing how our parents talk about money, what their emotional response is to money, fears around, is there enough money in the household, or fears around stockpiling money, how they spent their money, all these things we’re absorbing as kids.
Robert Maldonado 03:56
Often, it's not spoken about explicitly. We're simply assuming by what we're observing as children, what is the meaning of money. Obviously, most of us get a sense that it's a problem. The money is hard to come by, or only certain people have it. We often get the message that only bad people have money, that the wealthy are somehow evil or bad people. All those things, we don't examine them.
Debra Maldonado 04:41
Money doesn't make you happy. We shouldn't pursue it at all, and be satisfied with what we have.
Robert Maldonado 04:49
Those concepts, those early impressions get integrated into what Jung called the persona that we create, which is what we're going to be talking about. How does our persona deal with this question of money and value in the real world? What can we do about it? One thing I like to go by is these higher principles, and one of the highest principle is that we should never bow our heads to money. We should never see it as more powerful than our own mind.
Debra Maldonado 05:29
You shouldn't serve money, let it serve you. How do we do that? Let's break it down into the four archetypes we teach in our training ahead. In my book, Like a Spark from Fire, there’re four archetypes which is whether you're male or female, the mother/father, or take on the masculine or feminine role, that mother/father role, there's the lover, there's the professional, or warrior role, and the mystic. The mother is a persona that's always caring and giving and nurturing. What happens though, is that mothers or fathers are the caretaker of the family, it's almost like a guilt of spending money on themselves. The money is always to serve a purpose, to be responsible with it, sit at the kitchen table, look at all the bills, make sure they're all paid, make sure the family is taken care of, very cautious, but always about the whole group, very concerned. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's the pattern that you learn maybe from your family, you are responsible, you make sure your kids are fed, you don't go off and vacation and leave them behind and not having to feed them, you take care of them.
Robert Maldonado 06:47
We should note that by persona we mean the social roles that we play, they're not the true us, the true self. They are a type of mask that we wear in society, according to Jung.
Debra Maldonado 07:03
If you think about that personality, that role we play, we would play that with money as well. We take care of the money, we make sure it's okay, we're responsible with it, we really take care of it, we manage it in a really great way, we make sure that everyone's taken care of. The thing that we don't want to do is be irresponsible, the shadow of that would be someone who's very careless with money, who isn't able to support their family, isn't able to support the people they love. That would be the shadow, which is the part you reject. To prop up that persona, we have to reject something.
Robert Maldonado 07:47
The ideal expression of personality for the mother type and her expression would be that she's able to take care of the people she loves. She's always there, she's able to provide for them, to give nurturance and sustenance. To play that motherly role, there's nothing wrong with it. But when people believe they are the role they're playing, they over identify with the persona, then the shadow builds up. For the mother, the shadow would be the opposite, somebody who is reckless with money, does not provide for the people that she loves, squanders it, or is very selfish with it.
Debra Maldonado 08:43
The relationship with money is that it gives the mother a sense of security. Her relationship with money is money security, and that security is resonant with her conscious persona. But the opposite is that it's the fear that you will mess it up or make a bad decision. Then you can't support your family, you lose your job, or you splurge on something and then feel “Now I can't buy milk this week.” It's the idea that the money is really there for security and support, we don't risk it at all. The mother type is typically not a risk taker. She looks at what she could see as her level of how much she could spend, the limit. Then she makes her decisions around money based on what she has in the bank and what's practical and responsible. Nothing wrong with that, we should all be responsible, but the limitation is when she feels a fear of always having to uphold that. The guilt of “Maybe I made a mistake or I miscalculated”, that pressure to rely on. Then the money becomes the source of power versus herself or something deeper within us, the money serves like a safety net for them. You're giving money that power to provide safety and support for your family, that pressure that you need to be responsible. The challenge is that you are hard on yourself, if you make a bad decision.
Robert Maldonado 10:27
We say that the mother type would then use money as a substitute for love in some cases.
Debra Maldonado 10:35
Think of the father too. A lot of times there are situations where the father is responsible for bringing in the money, and the mother's responsible for managing it. But the father may be working in a job he's not happy with, but his job is to use that money to support his family. Let's say he wanted to start his own business or leave his job because he wanted to do something artistic or creative. He won't feel free to do that because his pattern is “I gotta provide”, that conflict there as well. A single mother, definitely the same thing, “I can't go get educated and change careers or do something for me, or even get a massage” because that's not responsible.
Robert Maldonado 11:21
Before we go into how the mother type integrates the shadow, the opposite, let's go to the next.
Debra Maldonado 11:30
The lover, she or he is the spender. A lot of times it's not their money, their spending could be an inheritance, it could be their husband, or partner, or male attention, or woman attention. There's some person basically feeding the money. It's a very pleasurable, money is pleasure. As long as there's money flowing, there's pleasure. The lover type never has a savings account, probably gets into debt, is just irresponsible, takes a lot of risks, and doesn't make practical— they’re opposite of the mother in a way. They don't make practical decisions on money. They are thinking “What's gonna get me the most fun? If it's fine, I'll do it.” If it's not fun, if it's responsible, or it takes a commitment or an investment, it’s scary to lover, lover wants immediate gratification with money. They're the type of spender that you see, like Gucci person “I don't care if it's my whole paycheck, I'm going to buy it.” Looking for that quick fix.
Robert Maldonado 12:36
Just to be clear, people can play these roles in different times in their lives. They're not stuck to that.
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Debra Maldonado 13:48
But the lover’s also sensual, so they can blow money on addictions in extreme cases. They're just very casual, not responsible, only answering to them. They're actually selfish with the money and using it. But again, the opposite of that would be they never get to save, they use money as a tool. When they're in lack, it feels like they're in pain, they're not getting pleasure because there's no money, there isn't money left to give them this or they're getting the pleasure out of the money in the spending versus actually finding that within themselves.
Robert Maldonado 14:38
And their shadow would be what?
Debra Maldonado 14:42
The responsible person that saves, that prolongs satisfaction, delaying satisfaction to maybe save up for something versus spending it right away, splurging. The opposite is someone who at a restaurant is looking at the bill and splitting with their friends and making sure it's to the penny, that everyone got charged for what they wanted, where the lover just put $20, and hopefully that covers it. They don't really have that sense of detail with money either, it's too much trouble. That hyper responsible, not taking risks and even holding back pleasure in their life, because they don't feel it's responsible, it's really hard because they have to keep that status up, they go on the golf course, and Joe is making a million dollars a year, and Bill's making five, and you only made two, and you feel like “I'm not good as Bill, but I'm better than Bob”, comparing yourself based on your worth, based on what money comes in.
Robert Maldonado 15:49
Like the Wall Street guys, the corporate women, of course, that are in those powerful positions.
Debra Maldonado 15:58
Then people just want more and more and more, it's never enough, they've never really happy because they use that money as a status symbol.
Robert Maldonado 16:06
So their shadow would be lack, poverty, irresponsibility with money.
Debra Maldonado 16:15
Also relationships, a lot of times, there's a shadow of someone who's very emotional and caring about others. These are general, that doesn't mean that every professional who's really looking for support, but again, this is the persona they may not like, may give up relationships, not getting married, not have kids because they're pursuing that professional role. That emotional part is not attended to, it's more about taking action in the world. And the last one is the mystic, which is very interesting, because the mystic rejects money altogether, she or he is very into their spiritual life. They feel that money's evil, or it causes people to lose their way. They have a lot of times rejection of money. They feel like it's not a worthy pursuit at all, that spiritual pursuit is wonderful, and like a judgment around people. A lot of mystics we've worked with, our coaches and healers, don't charge enough for their services, they feel guilty asking for money, they feel there's a judgement about money, that it's dirty. The opposite of them would be someone like the professional, that's totally not emotional, but going for the cash and making sure they're getting the money, and maybe a little uncaring or unspiritual, or evil, you are doing something morally wrong with the money.
Robert Maldonado 17:50
That would be their shadow. They would be triggered by professionals or people that do make money.
Debra Maldonado 18:00
Or charge a lot of money, things that are expensive, and feel that that's bad.
Robert Maldonado 18:06
Out of these personality types, which one do you think makes the best entrepreneur?
Debra Maldonado 18:15
Actually, the best entrepreneur is someone who's integrated their shadow. Whatever type they are, if they can integrate the shadow, because all of these have that depth, that dark side, the shadow side, which inhibits them from being fully successful. The mother/father type, their lack of risk or the feel of responsibility for others, not really being able to take a risk and invest in things they want to do, start a business, be happy in what they do, they settle and stay safe. I was the mother type in my first business. I’d do sales calls, and I’d feel bad asking for money. I’d feel if they spent more money with me, I'd be responsible for them. It was a conflict within myself of charging and making sure they do the work. It holds people back because they really feel afraid to ask for more money, or even invite people to take your service. For me, sometimes I was relieved when someone didn't have money because I'd be like “Then I'm not challenged. I don't have to face them being mad at me if it doesn't work, or if they don't get the results they want.” The mother type can be very limiting, although it's very kind, you care for people, you want to be, helping people, you have a kind heart. It's not bad, it's just limiting.
Robert Maldonado 19:43
So the $64 million question is, what is your type and how do you integrate the opposite? Because you are saying this integration is required for real success. What are the mechanisms in order to integrate the shadow?
Debra Maldonado 20:04
It is really interesting for you to look at your family. You and I did this a long time ago, a couple of years ago, we looked at what our family thought about money and what their relationship with money was, maybe what type they were, what's the general consensus. Even your friends, the people you spend a lot of time with. You basically have the same attitude around money, and what's that? What is that the conversation? You don't really talk about money, but you know how people are making decisions with what they do with their lives. Then you say “I think I fit into this category”. Or maybe you examine what's the fear of not being met, a lot of us are proud of being caring, or someone who wants to be free wheeling, “I'm attached to that, I don't want to change.”
Robert Maldonado 20:55
Let's start with the mother. We know the mother is using money to take care of other people. In a nutshell, her shadow is one of irresponsibility, she would be triggered and try to avoid being perceived that way at all cos. Her persona is very much about presenting herself in that way. She would be triggered if others perceived her as irresponsible with money, or not using it to take care of others.
Debra Maldonado 21:34
I have an example of that. A lot of times mothers will talk about what they're giving to their children. It's like a one-upmanship of “I got Becky in ballet class, I got this best teacher.” Then the mother may feel she’s not doing enough for her child to have the best. That fear comes up, that trigger. You examine it, you look at it and say “What is this about?” It gives you an opportunity to free yourself. Can you see that? You worked with moms as a child psychologist, that idea that you have to have the best?
Robert Maldonado 22:10
Both parents. But how does the integration of the shadow work?
Debra Maldonado 22:19
The integration of the shadow is you understand how you've made decisions about money in the past based on that persona, then inviting the possibility of what if I allowed a little bit of this shadow into my life? What if I was a little more selfish? What was the fear? You get to the fear of what if I did something outside of my norm. That's integration, where you're starting to see both sides, you're popping up in the sides, you're pushing away, then you make a decision out of freewill. It's a process, it’s not just an intellectual understanding, we're giving you a quick example. But it really is about coming to terms with that other part of yourself that you've pushed away, that wasn't allowed to live because you had to be the responsible one. We all wish we could just get rid of that responsibility. A lot of mothers dream of spending the day at the spa, but they would never do it because of the guilt.
Robert Maldonado 23:22
We know there's a component of insight. The individual has to become aware that they are playing out these patterns in relationship to money. That emotion is the difficult part because it's like a moral judgment that they have about certain behaviors. In facing that is really the transformation they have to face, that moral dilemma. Jung says the shadow work always poses a moral problem for us. Because it means going against our sense of what's right and wrong, how to act around money or with money.
Debra Maldonado 24:09
I have another example I had to deal with. Many coaches and people that do service work feel like they always have to show up for everyone 100% all the time. When I first started doing email supporting between my sessions, it would be a Sunday afternoon, I’d see an email, I wanted to have my weekend but I knew this person was in crisis, so I rushed to the respond right away. Then I got into always checking my email. What if someone needs me? It really didn't give me much freedom because then I was just always on edge that something is going to fall, I'm going to disappoint someone. I slowed down how many clients I would take because of all that responsibility, so many of the coaches I've worked with also say “When I started to get a lot of clients, I shut down the flow because that need to be responsible, to be there for everyone.” If someone falls through the cracks, you're a terrible person. You're gonna have to deal with that. You can only do what you can do. You can set boundaries, but you have to deal with your own self, it's not really their judgment that you fear, because a lot of times the client would say when I would rush to answer them “I didn't think you would answer me till tomorrow, because it's Sunday.” You think they need you more than you think they need you. That pressure that we put on ourselves, that emotion is really something to open up and see, what is this pulling from me? Why do I feel this fear of this person being mad at me or feeling disappointed? What does that mean about me? It's really our ego’s way to keep this persona up and not crack. The ego preserves this self concept. If I was this terrible person, my self concept would be shattered. Everyone would know what a terrible person you are, they'd be shamed forever. We're all conditioned by that social expectation.
Robert Maldonado 26:14
For all these types, the mother, of course, has to face that moral question of what if I splurge on myself or take some initiative for my own interest? To begin to integrate the shadow elements of money or their relationship with money. Now, what does integration give the individual?
Debra Maldonado 26:40
Freewill. Because now you know. I love the question “Is this what I really want or is this what my conditioning is making me do?” Is this what I always have done or is this something I'm really making a choice out of? Even in neuroscience, they realize that our decisions are made eight seconds in the brain before we're conscious of them. Most of our decisions are made unconsciously, we think we're making these decisions about money, about boundaries, how we act in the world with our relationships, but it's all unconscious. That tendency to keep up that pattern is there. That's why changing your relationship with money can feel very uncomfortable. If you're the lover and used to splurging, being disciplined will feel painful to you, it'll feel like you're depriving yourself. If you're the professional, it's bringing in the emotion around your life, you have to face some of the relationships you've pushed aside because you were pursuing, that pursuit might not be as fulfilling as you thought. You have to come to terms with it, then you can make a decision. I'd still want to pursue success but I also want to bring in this other part of myself, this emotional part, and have better relationships. We're more in balance versus just reacting out of the way we've been taught. One of the things we have to look at is our are parents and what families are driven by. For my family, it was to get married and have kids, be a mom, that's the goal. For some parents, it's to go to the best colleges, reach a lot of success. That's your goal. We blindly fall into those patterns, we think we’re choosing it but it's been basically impressed upon us early on, how we should be and how we should relate to money.
Robert Maldonado 28:33
Not only by parents, of course, but by culture as well as language and society in general.
Debra Maldonado 28:39
And friends, your friends around you will say “Why would you spend money on that?”
Robert Maldonado 28:45
It's a lot of pressure for us to conform to certain ways of being and certain ways of relating to money. To escape that, or in the Jungian sense, to integrate the shadow, to be more balanced and have choice as to how are we going to relate to money in a conscious way, it requires some self examination, the ability and the willingness to look at our conditioning without necessarily judging it. It's that ability to look at our conditioning from a higher perspective and say “I can see why I've made certain decisions early on, and why I identified as a persona in a certain way. But now I want to be free. I want to make my own conscious choices around money.” That requires integration of the shadow, that ability to ask that moral question, what is so wrong about this? Why should I be beholden to my past conditioning? What would happen if I'm free, if I make choices outside of that conditioning?
Debra Maldonado 30:14
It's not the amount of money, it doesn't really matter. My grandmother grew up very poor from the depression, she lived in the projects her whole life. She was the happiest woman I've ever known. She says she always felt rich and wealthy. Not to say she had a perfect relationship with money, but she wasn't feeling that lack. She always felt like she had enough where someone wealthy might have a more poverty mindset. It's really not about the amount of money, everyone has a different relationship with it. You could be excited about being an entrepreneur and making money but also feeling like you're doing something good for the world. Even though it's a lot of responsibility or a lot of abundance coming to you, you don't like buy into it. There's a balance you can have. But some people basically lose their soul, they forget about their own personal development, their life, they work themselves for the money. You have to ask yourself “What is my relationship with money? What if money was a person, how would I relate to it? How am I using it as a tool to feed my ego’s fears?” The fear of being irresponsible, the fear of being constricted, the fear of being poor, even the fear of being evil, those four different shadows in those types. What am I projecting onto money that's helping me sustain my own patterns. If you can do that, then your relationship with money changes, then everything changes in your life.
Robert Maldonado 32:01
On both sides, if you see money as more powerful than you, you're in that lack mentality, you're essentially giving money the power of God basically, you're saying money is more powerful than my mind and my spirit, I bow down to it, I give up in trying to attain wealth or use money for my higher purpose. On the other extreme, if you have abundance and money and wealth, but you still hold it as that power to prop your persona up, that status and that self esteem comes from money, it’s almost identical to the poor person essentially, you're still in that lack mentality, the only difference is that you've found a way to obtain money and to use it. But it's identical, it’s attachment to money, giving your power over to some external force. The ideal of not losing your soul, still being able to use money but not giving your power away to it is to put it to work for your higher purpose, it serves you, it serves your higher purpose, your working life, which arises from your own mind, not from the banks, not from some job, some corporation out there, but from your own initiative.
Debra Maldonado 33:45
A good example of this is let's say, you’re trying to be responsible as a mom or father, for your family, or even just your partner, to make sure they're taken care of. But specifically children, a lot of moms or parents don't really pursue their dreams because they feel that responsibility, what everyone else would think of them if they let their family down. Jung said there's nothing more damaging to a child than the unlived life of the parent. When you think about your purpose and putting money towards your purpose, and you're thinking “This is selfish, it's my purpose”, no, you living your purpose is the greatest lesson you can give your children. If you can live a life that's fulfilling and teach your children you can be fulfilled, that is a valuable lesson versus teaching them to be afraid of money, or the tax man or the debtor coming, or losing the house, all that stress most people deal with every day, living paycheck to paycheck, gauging their self worth on their credit score. Being free to pursue your dream and your purpose is the best thing you can do. Because then you're going to tell your children you can do what you love and be abundant. You don't have to do something you love on the weekends or on the side.
Robert Maldonado 35:16
You don't necessarily have to be an entrepreneur, we know plenty of people that have retrained their mind, their relationship around money, they're still in corporate positions and doing very well.
Debra Maldonado 35:28
Or working in a hospital or doing some health care or therapist or something else. I remember when I worked in the corporate world, one of my friends’ husband left his big high tech job, he was making a lot of money, to be school teacher, he loved it. She said it made her feel so good that her husband did what he loved, that was more important to her than how much money he was making. Of course, high school teacher makes a lot less unfortunately than a high tech engineer. But he was happy. It's not about the money. But also you don't have to limit yourself to “If I'm doing something purposeful, it means I'm not going to make money” either.
Robert Maldonado 36:11
The bottom line is it does require a process of retraining your mind, your perspective on what is the value of money.
Debra Maldonado 36:24
It's not just about manifesting money. I'm gonna manifest money, but your persona is going to do with the money what you've always done. You haven't changed, you're not really growing with it. Maybe win the lottery, but then you're still falling back into old patterns.
Robert Maldonado 36:41
It's a fascinating topic relevant to everyone, because everything we do in life as social human beings requires some money exchange, some exchange of value as well.
Debra Maldonado 36:57
So what would be the true wealth archetype, before we go?
Robert Maldonado 37:02
I'd say somebody that is completely free from the constraints of the persona and the shadow, they've integrated those elements, they're making decisions out of their higher purpose, acting out of the higher purpose where money serves that purpose, instead of them serving the money, spending time in an exchange where the money then serves their purpose, which is the ideal, that is the true way of working because then you don't lose your soul. On the contrary, money as a tool is then put to work in the right context of supporting your vision, of creating more opportunities for yourself and for others.
Debra Maldonado 37:54
The key is to remember that our true nature is abundant. We're never in lack. It's a misperception by the ego that there's limitation and lack. We've all been taught, and it's been passed down throughout the generations in our families and our culture. To really access that free will but also know that we're naturally abundant, how do I access that naturally abundant way, you have to face your shadow, you cannot do it unless you face your shadow. That's why we do what we do to help people be free. Next week, we are going to talk about how to find your purpose. We talked a little bit about purpose today. But just to recap, mother is the responsible one, mother and father, the lover is the freewheeling spender, the professional is the one who sees his or herself worth based on their status with money, and the mystic is someone who sees money as evil, just reject anything material about the world. We all have a piece of each of them. But it's good to examine them. What’s your go to? How can you break free of that conditioning? Take care everyone, we'll see you next week with another episode of Soul Sessions. Don't forget to subscribe to us. We're here on YouTube, just push the button below or go to the links in the bio and the description for all our other channels. We'll see you soon.
Robert Maldonado 39:35
Thanks for watching.
Debra Maldonado 39:37
Robert Maldonado 39:38
See you next time.
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