The Father Imago

Listen to our discussion on Carl Jung's concept of the Father Imago (complex), the Father Archetype and how to work with the Father Imago to find love and success in your life.

• What is the Father Imago?
• How does the Father Imago influence love & relationships?
• How does the Father Imago influence success, drive and purpose?

•••

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The Father Imago

Sat, 7/4 2:24PM • 46:55

SPEAKERS

Debra Maldonado, Robert Maldonado

Robert Maldonado 00:00

Hello, everyone. Hello. Welcome to another installment of our soul sessions. Yes. I'm Dr. Robert Maldonado. And I'm here with my lovely co host, Debra Maldonado. And today we're talking about one of our favorite topics. 

Debra Maldonado 00:20

Yeah,we say that

Robert Maldonado 00:23

the father Imago

Debra Maldonado 00:24

Hmm.

Robert Maldonado 00:26

I really haven't heard people talk that much about it. So we wanted to do this call and just discuss it a little bit. Primarily give you an idea of how we work with it.

Debra Maldonado 00:40

Yes. And as you know, those of you are new to us and a lot of new people listening, our work is based on Jungian psychology, Eastern philosophy, Vedanta Buddhism, you know, all the great wisdom traditions, and also neuroscience and Rob has a background in neuroscience early childhood development. My background is as a hypnotherapist. I have worked with thousands of people working with their unconscious mind. And we've been doing this for 15 years now almost 18 years, I think. I think it's 18 years we've been doing this. So we've been doing it a while. And basically what we're trying to do is introduce Jungian work in a coaching model, so it can be accessible to everyone. When I first read Jung, I read, you know, Joseph Campbell, and just all the mythology, and it's all great. And I actually bought a couple books about myth, you know, the mythological parts of Jungian work, which is very fascinating, but I had a hard time applying it in my life. I was like, Okay, I'm single, what is this mean? How do I apply this in my life and then when I met you, we started having these discussions. And I'm really excited about this topic, because it's really, I think my father imago was such a shift in my life in so many different ways and how it helped me create everything I have today. And so it's a gonna be a juicy topic for many of you, especially women, talking about the father daughter relationship and how that works. 

Robert Maldonado 02:13

Can I just interject? For those people that are new to our work, we don't take the approach of woundedness. 

Debra Maldonado 02:25

Yes.

Robert Maldonado 02:27

And that is because of our obsession with Eastern philosophy. And in essence, Eastern philosophy says that the true self cannot be damaged in any way. It cannot be damaged, it is an impossibility. So we always approached this kind of work as, yeah, it's important to look at it with the understanding that it doesn't hurt us.

Debra Maldonado 02:53

It doesn't bind us in a way unless we're not conscious of it, then it can direct our life but it's not something that we're stuck with for the rest of our life. We can be independent of it.

Robert Maldonado 03:06

That's right. So keep that in mind as we go through the the kind of difficult concepts that we talked about.

Debra Maldonado 03:12

Yes. And so we should have done this a few weeks ago because it was Father's Day. But I want to ask you, Rob, what is the father imago? What does that mean? Let's define that term. So we're all on the same page.

Robert Maldonado 03:24

Yeah. And here, we were liberating it from, from the therapy models and kind of a typical clinical approach to, to Jungian work. So for us, really, if you think about the archetype, the archetype is like Jung's the matrix. The archetypes form the matrix of the unconscious mind or the psyche in general.

Debra Maldonado 03:51

And I just want to say that when I heard the term archetype, I just thought they were like beams that were kind of Yeah, like I was in the spiritual like New Age stuff when I first moved to Colorado and you know, lots of cool stuff I did. And then I would think they were kind of like, like angels like angels or beings or something like that, or you know, and then what helped me understand what it is. It's a universal pattern. It's something that in our psyche, and like animals have psyche archetypes. So it's not just human, but in our psyche. That's how we experience the world through these universal patterns. So a chair is an archetype we may be when we were cavemen, we sat on a rock, and that we called in our mind, that was our chair, and then it evolved a car is a way to move that was kind of a new archetype, a moving place where we move and the bodies and archetype and men and women, feminine, masculine, all that stuff is archetypal. And so it's basically how we make sense of this world. You know, what's the alphabet of the world basically is a archetype. So we're born with them. Where we haven't we bring them with us into our experience? Yes.

Robert Maldonado 05:03

And so we think about the mother and the father archetypes, or archetypes. The father archetype is already there within us, right? It's not something where we're kind of inventing or creating as we develop. It's a it's already there like a template or

Debra Maldonado 05:25

like a concept that we kind of can use. 

Robert Maldonado 05:25

That's right. But the imago, let's say the image that we have of the Father, right, and it can be many faceted, is really derived from our direct experience of our father.

Debra Maldonado 05:44

So like a symbolic imago would be thrown out really.

Robert Maldonado 05:48

Well like it. Yeah, everything is symbolic, in essence in the mind,

Debra Maldonado 05:52

because the archetype and then there's symbol of the art so the father archetype is some symbolized by your personal father.

Robert Maldonado 05:59

Right because we can If we cannot see the archetype itself, because it is basically the construct.

Debra Maldonado 06:05

It's an idea. It's not something.

Robert Maldonado 06:08

Yeah, it's like the template. Yeah. Or the the infrastructure. Yeah. But we have to fill it with something. So that filling that we developed as we're experiencing the father or our biological father, our personal father, then that becomes filled with that imago that image of the Father. So

Debra Maldonado 06:32

Let me just I think I just had an idea that might metaphor that might work, folks. Like, it's kind of like when you get a paint by numbers picture right. There's number 1234. And it's almost like our life has these kind of, you know, foundation of this is where the, there's a father, there's the you know, there's all these elements to that picture and so we the archetype is the building block of that each paint by numbers. So we paint, we can follow, we paint in art with our experience what they mean to us. And so if you look at someone's paint by numbers, everyone's different. Even if you follow the rules, we have our unique expression of those numbers. So it's kind of like that paint by numbers. There's nothing there. And then we fill in the little shapes with what we believe is Yeah,

Robert Maldonado 07:27

That's a good way to, to put it. Also, a lot of people know the complex. So the mother complex, the father complex.

Debra Maldonado 07:34

But that sounds like something's wrong.

Robert Maldonado 07:36

Right? But let's say in the imago, we're using that idea that there's this collection of images and emotional energy stories in the father archetype or associated with the father archetype, but it's more of the personal experience, right?

Debra Maldonado 08:00

are so

Robert Maldonado 08:01

A constalation of images and emotions around the father archetype. 

Debra Maldonado 08:06

The father archetype is a blank slate, almost like or not a blank slate, but it has certain elements to it. And then we have in a personal experience with our father, and then the combination of this divine collective idea. And then our personal idea gets mushed together. And we now have this father figure and then that's what we perceive is what a father is. And then also, because the father's man, it's also masculine as well like our relationship with the masculine. And then we also have both masculine and feminine. So we have that it's related to our relationship with the masculine as well, our own masculine side.

Robert Maldonado 08:51

Yes, that's right. And we wanted to talk about more of the relationship with the daughter. Most of our listeners are women. Yeah. So it's an important piece to understand what is the relationship with the woman, the relationship that the woman has with this father imago in her psyche.

Debra Maldonado 09:13

So the woman has a template for the Father. She has an experience of her personal father. And then in our mind is like a little file. I like the man file that says, This is how men relate to me. This is how men love me. This is how men support me. This is how I trust men. This is what men are. Are they strong and powerful? Are they wimpy and uncertain.

Robert Maldonado 09:39

We'll get to how it plays out. Let me read this from the Origin of the Hero by it's an essay by Jung himself, okay. He says the father exerts his influence on the mind, or spirit of his daughter, on her logos, her logo, so we're going to explain what all that means.

Debra Maldonado 10:02

Say that again the father exerts his influence on the mind or spirit of his daughter on her logos. I don't understand what that means. So you can have to explain that.

Robert Maldonado 10:12

Right? So he's saying, Well, look, let's ask the second question. How does this play in in love relationships? Like, how does the father imago play into the way a woman experiences relationships?

Debra Maldonado 10:31

So inside the woman's psyche, there's a father imago, which is her story about men and her relationship with her father. And that's what she her father appears to her as to it's her own internal because some sibling might have a different father imago could be the same person, same father, but each child has a different imago. That's right. Okay. And so, for example, like in my family, like one of my sisters love like that my father was like, he could do no wrong. He was the king. He never did anything wrong. And I was always like, he didn't love me enough and he was didn't hug me enough. And, you know, he's had kind of a different, complex or imago than my sister did. And my sister was always in a relationship, long term, and I was always the single one. So it was like, almost like a distrust of men, where my sister really loved. Like, she put the man on a pedestal. And she was okay with that. Him being on the pedestal, like she loved being the girlfriend, wife kind of type. And I was the rebellion. One of like, you don't give me love. So why am I Why would I give you my power, but I wanted it at the same time. So I had a more complex.

Robert Maldonado 11:46

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up to the rebellious piece because a lot of us think in terms of I had this or I have this relationship with a father imago and that's it. But if you think about development, we we have a different relationship with that imago as we grow up, yes. Because initially as children, we want to idealize the father and we want to, we want to feel that he's protecting us that he's going to guide us in essence, he's a, like you said, the king of the house, and a man of the house and he's going to be there for us as a protector. Right, and as a guide, but we get to adolescence and we start to rebel against the Father. And this is right, because we should rebel. If you want to individuate if you want to assert your own will, you have to break away from the Father just like you have to break away from the mother. You have to, let's say, come to terms with authority somehow.

Debra Maldonado 12:59

Yeah. So they're really the authority, they represent authority power. So for me, I was, I remember when I was in sixth grade, I had this very liberated teacher. And she kept saying women's rights. It was like in the 70s, you know, women's liberation, burn the bras, remember all that. And my father couldn't stand her because he was like, the old fashion, you know, Archie Bunker guy, you know, oppressing women. So, it we always had this kind of battle between us, where my sister really was okay with that role, you know, that he so she kind of had more, more accepting of that imago and I was more rebellious of it.

Robert Maldonado 13:38

That's right. And then some people get stuck in that rebellion that yes, which I did, which then doesn't allow them to resolve the conflict. Yes, that's right, that you're not meant to stay there. You're meant to come to terms with it somehow. And so you can deal with authority, you can deal with the world. So this is what Jung is saying here that the Father exerts his influence on the mind and spirit of the daughter. Right? The influence that the Father has is going to be internalize in the daughter. And it's going to paint the way she experiences the world, but the world in a particular way.

Debra Maldonado 14:30

Right, not just that what the daughter pulls from the Father, but with a father set tends to work. It's a two ways so not just like you're making this up. It's like the father some certain way. So his will is influencing her father imago. So if the father like we were talking about this earlier, if the father was ambivalent, like he was, sometimes he was home, sometimes he didn't go home, he would cheat or he wouldn't have you know, he would let the family down. You know, that kind image of power is that he wasn't in his power or that he, we were all so dependent in this external force that is not dependable or not trustworthy, or the father that's very controlling, which was my father and you didn't want to disobey him. So he exerted his power. And in my mind, the father became a very dominating kind of image in my mind, a masculine dominating image, right? Where that's why I rebelled against, you know, with a women's you know, liberation sixth grade, I was 11 years old, and I was already you know, kind of wanting my independence and and where other people would be like, no, that's just the way the world and there wasn't a resistance to it. So each of us have a unique way of interacting with that with what the Father gives us.

Robert Maldonado 15:49

Absolutely. So now if you think about relationships, once a woman becomes an adult, she wants to form a pair bond right? She wants to bind with a man. And that initial imprint the father imago is going to play big time into the way she experiences that relationship. If she's still kind of under the spell of the original experience of the father imgao, in other words, she's played along she hasn't rebelled against the authority. Then she's she'll pobably create a very similar relationship, that of the father and the mother that she observed.

Debra Maldonado 16:37

Like my sister. She was very, like, clean up the house. One of the housewife wanted to do all this thing.

Robert Maldonado 16:42

Yes. And there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado 16:45

She was with the guy for 20 years. She always had a boyfriend and then when she they broke up, she had another person like it was easy for her to play that role. She didn't have a conflict with the man having power.

Robert Maldonado 16:57

Well, let me say that was my whole thought. There's nothing wrong with that, except that the person is not individuating.

Debra Maldonado 17:08

Yes, they're just playing out the role unconsciously. So there may not be friction there may be, they may have like a happy marriage and simple and it works. But if they're not free, they're not choosing it. It's actually choosing her. Like she's she's allowing that role to choose her.

Robert Maldonado 17:27

If the woman then has become stuck or has come to terms with the authority piece of it, and she's rebelling against the authority, then it's going to play out in the relationship as the woman being very cautious about letting somebody into her intimate life, right? Yes, because you can't trust authority. Yeah, it will take my power away. That's right. And you're still in that rebelious attitude of, you know, I want to throw off the shackles of the father and rebel against him.

Debra Maldonado 18:09

That felt like giving into power? Like it's succumbing to power.

Robert Maldonado 18:13

Yeah. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, except, again, that you're playing out an unconscious pattern and not really making a choice. Now, if it's a choice, that is, individually, we come to terms with it. If you become aware of this internal father imago and kind of absorb it into consciousness into your awareness, then you can make a real choice. And if you say, to hell with men, you know, I don't I don't want a man telling me what to do. That's fine. It's a choice that you're making. But if it's unconscious, then you're kind of stuck there because you're you're obliged to respond in that passion.

Debra Maldonado 18:57

And while I'm not even that way, you're not, like for me, I didn't even realize I was rejecting the oppressor. I was thinking, I just haven't met the right person. But I keep meeting people that don't want a commitment. But anytime someone wanted a commitment from me or like to me, if I felt like the walls were coming in, and I kind of was I lost my attraction to the person, I was thinking, Wow, we had a great date and everything, and then they wanted to see me on Saturday night and I was like, Ah, I'm not gonna be able to look and I lose all my freedom, and they're gonna take over my life and it wasn't conscious, but I felt that kind of loss of attraction. And then I only was attracted to people that were unavailable because it was safe. They didn't have any demands on me. I could keep my independence, but consciously I was thinking Why doesn't anyone Love me like, I felt like I was the chaser but not the receiver. And when that pursuer came toward me, it was the opposite. And then I also what happened with my dad is that I realized that I put all this projection onto him of who he was. So that's a really important thing. A lot of people will think, well, this is the way my father was, this is the way he treated me. This is what you know, he was this kind of way. And that's why I'm the way I am. And for so many years, I worked with workshops and healing crystals and clearing and and really this idea that I had in my mind that my father was this harsh, cold man who didn't love me and abandoned me emotionally. And I have to heal that within myself. And what I realized, after years and years of trying to heal that and forgive him for being a terrible dad, that it was me that was actually not willing to open up. And maybe in early in life, there was a time where I felt that kind of his sternness, and there was a lot going on in our family, but I misinterpreted it. And so for my whole life as adults, sometimes we're working on this issue that we think is the problem. And it's not even real. And when I finally talked to him and just had an honest, direct conversation with him, and I said, Hey, you know, I want to be closer to you. And it was so scary. He was like, so do I. And I discovered all these other things about my dad, I didn't know. But in my mind, my imago was so distorted that he was this cold, distant father, but he was really just a scream puff. Like I, if I would have known and I gave up with so many years of my life, blaming him for why I didn't have love. And then right after that, that's when I met you. It was like, like a month or two later, it was just like that imago shifted. And then I was able to have a different dynamic and I was able to choose it. Do I want to be in a committed relationship? Is this the person I want to be with versus being driven by that unconscious protective of authority don't take over my life fear, and it's so irrational and we think, well, we just lost. I'm just not attracted to him anymore. It's like, yeah, that ego is saying no, you don't want to be attracted to that, because it doesn't fit with you anymore like it. And so we match up with other people, because we're weak. So I love that idea that the imago isn't something that's fixed. And a lot of times, it's our interpretation, or all of it is our interpretation. And we think what it means about us is so real, even if the father was a terrible person, and abusive or whatever, we still the story we made up about it of ourselves is our story. And we can make it make a stronger or we can make it that we're this weak, helpless person, or we you know, and we're working on really that interpretation versus something that's real because the true self has never been harmed has never been hurt and has all possibilities.

Robert Maldonado 22:47

Yeah. And we could definitely see why people are attracted to that notion that Yeah, the father or our parents in general, screwed us up, and therefore we need therapy, or we have problems with the relationships or we have somebody to blame. In essence, there's something kind of satisfactory about it like, well, at least we have a rationale, or at least we have a story of why we're not doing what we want to be doing.

Debra Maldonado 23:21

Like an explanation.

Robert Maldonado 23:23

Yes, that's right. The mind works very much on that principle that if you have a rationale, you're kind of off the hook.

Debra Maldonado 23:32

Is that why people say everything happens for a reason? So kind of like a rationale like this bad thing happened? Well, everything happens for a reason. And we have to trust and those are nice things to say. But sometimes they're used to push away what we're really feeling.

Robert Maldonado 23:47

Yeah, that's right. And it's so pervasive in the culture that people don't even question Oh, yeah, that Yeah, of course, because this happened with my parents, of course. I'm going to have problems and relationships.

Debra Maldonado 24:02

So let's talk about business and money because that's another part of the father imago that I didn't realize that also was impacting me and clients.

Robert Maldonado 24:12

For you entrepreneurs out there, I mean, this is key to understand because the father imago really plays into just like Jung says, the logos. So logo simply means that higher rationale that we have that higher mental ability, to cut through the illusion of things and to really get at the core of it in a logical clear way. And the father imago at its best, let's say, you know, in its ideal, it's supposed to represent that in that logic. Yes, the animus has the ability to see clearly and act with decisiveness.

Debra Maldonado 24:14

You know, it's like the will. And it's also power. And so the Animus can be very wimpy and very like. So people that are ambivalent that you have kind of a wimpy animus, it's the you don't have that like, surge or, you know, that kind of will like, Yes, I can do it. It's more. I don't know, maybe I don't know if I'm good enough, and then but or there's the arrogant animus where you're bulldozing over, and you're not really so it's almost like a force, but it's moving you forward versus I think people confuse like a lot of action that has fear in it, and I got to catch up and I'm overworking as active animus. But that's really you're not you're just kind of spinning. So the Animus is really it's kind of like you said it cuts through the barrier. So if you have a block in your life or an obstacle, the Animus gives us the power to move through it. And then the feminine side is really the creative force of how to do it and you know what kind of moving things along and feeling and passion, but the Animus is that pure energy and that pure power. So if we had a father that an image of a father, that was very powerful, but we didn't we it was exerted onto us that they had power and we didn't, we're not most women aren't conscious that they have that masculine energy within them. So they project that power onto men onto their bosses, onto external things.

Robert Maldonado 26:36

Yeah, again, if we look at the stages, if the woman has simply bought into this idea that the father is the authority and the power right, he has the will, then she's always going to be looking for the external to give her that power, that will.

Debra Maldonado 26:56

Because it's externally first in the father. 

Robert Maldonado 26:58

That's right. 

Debra Maldonado 26:59

And if he could What if the father said you can do anything you want and encouraged her? Would that be a different thing but most parents don't do that. Most parents are more cautious and more like they, I think they like to the father likes to be the advisor, like the wise they also take the role of that wise man archetype. You know, let's ask dad Father Knows Best, you know, your mother. When I was growing up, my mother always says, Well, you have to ask your father, you know, he had the autority and control.

Robert Maldonado 27:27

It's not so much that I think it's Remember, we're meant to rebel against the Father. We're meant to rebel. It is healthy, essentially to rebel. Not in a total way and say, you know, to hell with you guys and I'm leaving the house and never coming back. But to say I need to find my own ideas, my own way of doing things and trusting in that. That Animas is internal that it's me that I'm experiencing, not the projection of the Father. So in the rebellious stage, then there's more energy, right? Because the woman is saying, No, I'm able to make a business and be an entrepreneur and exert my own will have my own funding my own money through this power that I have, but if she's, let's say, if she hasn't come to terms with the, the rebellious part.

Debra Maldonado 28:24

She's doing it instinctively verses consciously. 

Robert Maldonado 28:34

Yeah. And she's doing it also, as I'll show you. 

Debra Maldonado 28:39

Yeah. Like more out of fear, yes. Kind of grabbing power. 

Robert Maldonado 28:43

Well it was a defense mechanism. Right? It's saying, I need to break away from the authority. Therefore, I'm going to exert my will, this way to show them in in essence, like me against the world and we all Seeing those entrepreneurs right that it's, they're always fighting with the world. And yes, everybody is else is wrong, everybody is terrible out there, but I have the best ideas. I have the good stuff. And therefore, you should listen to me. The resolution then the let's say the consciousness comes in when the entrepreneur, especially a woman entrepreneur is able to say, wait a minute, I understand. I've come to terms with that rebellious piece. I understand that there there are forces that are going to oppose me. But that it's essentially my own mind and I'm that I'm working with.

Debra Maldonado 29:43

They're not you're not fighting something external.

Robert Maldonado 29:45

Yeah, it's my own, let's say elements in my own ignorance of how the world works and how business works, how finances work, but that those things essentially can help me develop my business and develop myself my consciousness through that process.

Debra Maldonado 30:03

You know, I noticed that there's different times in my evolution as an entrepreneur, and even in my personal corporate past is that when I really wanted to do something, and I had that determination, it was almost like I was my animus was aligned in a pure way. And my will nothing could stop me. But when I was ambivalent, and I was like, I don't know what I want to do, and I was confused, or I was insecure, or I was waiting for something out there to give me permission. That's when it was nothing really happened. And I think it's about owning our power. And a lot of people talk about the feminine power. Yeah, we're women, but the Animus is the other half. We need both masculine and feminine to really work and the masculine is about that, will that kind of that? What drives us like what's that thing that drives us? The passion and the vision and the purpose is more fun. And like it's more like, kind of idea, you know, emotional, but the masculine is that force of I can do this I can break through this barrier. And when I first started my hypnotherapy practice before I met you, I remember everyone was like, Debbie, you have balls, like you just are going for it. You my accountant at the time, my bookkeeper. It was like a year or two later, she said, You said you're going to write a book, you said you were going to have your own business, you said you're going to meet your partner, you were just so determined. And it's like that, that's where you're we're, we all have had those moments. We're accessing that. And it's almost like, I didn't hear my father's voice saying, you can't do it. And women don't have their own businesses and women aren't good with money or whatever my father would influence me about. It was like, it was like pure, pure drive. And so that's what you would say. The animus is and then also the money was always there. It was like I just, I didn't even I mean, I worried a little Little bit but it was at least like it's gonna work out like I had this trust and I think I want to talk to the last part is why I trusted that is because of the spiritual element of the Father Imago. 

Robert Maldonado 32:12

That's right. 

Debra Maldonado 32:12

So let's go to that part.

Robert Maldonado 32:13

Right So this logos and Jung again the father exerts his influence on the mind, or spirit of his daughter. The spirit party is the understanding that when we talk about really everything when we talk about relationships, when we talk about business success, we're talking about invisible things. We can't really see them.

Debra Maldonado 32:46

It's not like can you can pick up success with your hands and touch it. It's an idea. That's why our money to like right now people don't even carry cash anymore. It's an idea. When a computer screen. 

Robert Maldonado 33:00

In Jungian terms, those abstract ideas belong to the realm of the Spirit. 

Debra Maldonado 33:08

The Unseen.

Robert Maldonado 33:09

The unseen. Exactly. The seen is the realm of the mother, the physical material world the matter. The Unseen is the Father and Judeo Christian mythology, right you have the Father God, the Father, God who kind of opens up the way he instructs and and makes things happen. He's the authority. Yeah, he's the energy behind the matter. He's what quickens matter, to form in these patterns into to do what it's designed to do. And obviously, we need both. So the balance between matter and spirit is really what we're talking about. You the individual and for women, this is really important that she come to terms with that masculine father energy in her, which is the Animus. So we're talking about the union or the integration of the soul, the matter, and the Spirit. And that is, let's say in in practical terms, it simply means that you come to acknowledge that your ideas and the way you see the world is your responsibility. That it's you know, you're not blaming the external you're not blaming the past. You're not projecting onto the world, your problems you're saying. That energy of the masculine the Animas is coming from me. 

Debra Maldonado 34:58

So a lot of people I think that if they're asking the universe or God to bring them you know the things they want to you know, if I pray hard enough, I'm going to get my goodies and my man and like, for me, that was the thing I projected a sound earlier I projected that the disciplinarion father onto God and my mother would always say, you know, you're going to go to hell if you're not a good girl and don't sin and so I would always make sure I went to church, and I was thinking if I just behave and be a good person and pray enough, God will bring me my man without it's not my responsibility. And when I the very first time I got into personal development, I heard Louise Hay, my friend of mines, dear friend, Karen gave me the book, you can heal your life and I thought, okay, what's this? And it's like, your thoughts create your life and I said, Wait a minute. I thought God created everything I could God is in charge. And it was the first time I realized that I had some personal power. And he and I think we all, even if we know, personal development, and we've watched you know, these manifestation, things that you can create your life, we still I think embedded in our deep in our unconscious, that assumption that's still there that there's still a power bigger than me, you know there's still this other power that's directing my life. And so this father imago is a way for us to reclaim our spiritual power. And I always say that when we're dating and relationships, we're and even business, we're projecting our spiritual power onto money, then when I make enough money, I'll feel secure or when I have this big business deal, I'll be feel secure. Or when I have that partner, I'll feel secure. And if we're projecting all our spiritual power onto the external, we have no will for ourselves and then we're really just stuck. And so that's I think what you're talking about is that father imago from really an age that authority gives us this kind of assumption that, Do I really have that? Where am I really in charge? And in a way, like you said, it's safe, because it's really hard to take responsibility because it's easy for us to say, I was I tell my, when I first started doing this work, I kept saying it's very easy to take credit for all the good things she created. But if something bad happens in your life, it has to be you know, someone else's problem. Oh, sir, it's not my fault. This person came into my life. So it's really taking full responsibility and we're the inner authority versus the outer authority.

Robert Maldonado 37:37

Yeah. And if you think again, in terms of development, it is essentially becoming an adult.

Debra Maldonado 37:44

Yes. Like we talked about earlier.

Robert Maldonado 37:46

Integrating the father imago into your consciousness and being responsible, like a parent being responsible for yourself.

Debra Maldonado 38:01

So here's the thing that people will ask, Well, what does it mean to integrate the father imago. And I'm going to give my interpretation and then you can give yours if you disagree or need something to add. For me, it's not fixing the relationship with the Father and healing something about that, which can be fine. But it's about understanding your misperception of like, this is the old fixed idea I had about authority about power about men and masculine energy. And now I'm aware of that old unconscious have that fixed idea, but I don't have to agree with it anymore. But it's conscious meaning it's integrated, meaning it's not hidden in the unconscious, it's there. And it's like, Okay, well, what do I want to do with it now do and it's actually good to know. And be aware of it because when you fall into the pattern because we fall right back into it, if we're not aware We could say, Oh, that's that pattern. Again, I'm not seeing things as they really are. I'm seeing it through the pattern. And then you're able to choose a different reality versus, oh, I'm powerless to the economy. I'm powerless to, you know, the world out there, where the money's coming or where love is coming. It's saying, Oh, that's my old habit of thinking it's external. Let me pull it back in. And it's a lifelong journey because we're conditioned to see everything externalized and we're not really raised or conditioned or born with this idea that we're completely responsible for everything in our life. And we're not it's not to blame us for bad things. But it's to know that there's something about this situation I don't understand like there's something about myself that I don't understand yet. This is why the situate This is why that man cheated and left me there must be something about myself that I don't understand yet, but not in a negative like blaming way but just being like, Hey, you know, you don't know. Everything here unconscious so it's okay and to have that gentleness that curiosity of going well let me see what's what what created this let me be open and let me not beat myself up and just be like wow this is something interesting. Let me open it up. I think that approach is much more powerful.

Robert Maldonado 40:18

Yeah that's a good way to see it you know the I think we all grew up with this idea that there is this ideal father daughter relationship somewhere or father son relationship that I wish I had but that's it's a myth again it or it's it's an ideal nobody experiences that I guarantee you can look the whole world over you will not find a perfect relationship that gives you everything but it's kind of a an imprint that we have this idealized father daughter relationship.

Debra Maldonado 41:03

It should be perfect.

Robert Maldonado 41:04

Yeah, that it should be perfect. And part of it is, let's say part of growing up part of maturing is giving that up. Understanding that Wait a minute, that's not how life works, right? We leave behind the childish things is, as it says in the Bible, when we're children.

Debra Maldonado 41:25

Yeah, we see that kind of template or that kind of authority we, yeah, we need to survive. We need the word helpless little beings, you know, in the physical sense. Yes. And so we have to have those things fit in place.

Robert Maldonado 41:39

So maturation and individuation or Jung calls real individuation is seeing that all that is playing out in you, everything you experience in your life, and whether it be romantic relationships, or business opportunities are really giving you a chance to observe that inner structure of your psyche, in the world in your actual experiences. And if you understand it that way, you're able to learn from everything you're experiencing. It's giving you direct feedback as to where am I in my indiduation process.

Debra Maldonado 42:21

It's just if you don't understand why something is showing up, it's saying great, this is an opera this is showing something about my mind. It's an opportunity versus terrible I can't do it right, and life isn't about you think about it, our journey in life to get things like get more money, find love, all those things are great. But you'll find that once you get those things, this part of you wants more and more and more. So if you think that's gonna make you happy, that's really going to start where you're like I always felt like my life was on hold until I met that partner. For some people. My life is on hold Until I lose that extra 20 pounds, or my life is on hold until I can have that steady business that I can rely on and until then my life is on hold. And we don't want to have wait one day for a life to begin, we want to begin it today. And use and know that even when we get all those material things are the fluffy fun things in life to experience like love and success, that we're still going to have to deal with our mind. It's always going to be a part of our life. And that we're just it's not going to lead to lasting happiness, the lasting happiness is in this moment right now. And then if you can do that doesn't matter what you create, and then life becomes much more interesting. Then I'm in the whole button waiting for the customer service to give me my things I want you know, your life is on not on hold anymore. It's a dynamic, creative experience. Yeah, that's what Jung wanted us to know. And that's what we keep bringing to you so great. So, any last words before we go? I'd like to say that the main thing about the father imago, for me was the reclamation of my own power, my own spiritual power. And I knew inside all along that I was smart, and I had this like, desire that rebellious like I wanted to have more in life. I wanted to have the fullest extraordinary experience in life, I was kind of had that naturally. And I lost that it was almost like my ego kind of squash that for a while. And it's so great to find it again. Because even as children, we there were a lot of conditioning in children. But there's this raw spiritual relationship that we have the intuition and the imagination and all those things. We want to bring them up and use them now in a more creative, direct way, a mature way. And so everything you have is already within you and you probably already experienced a lot of your power, but you just didn't aren't accepting that it's you.

Robert Maldonado 45:07

Yeah, I would say the, the greatest message that we got from Jung's work is this idea that no matter what happened in the past, no matter what kind of relationship we have with our fathers or how bad it went, or how bad it is right now, we can always transform it. It's never too late to have great childhood.

Debra Maldonado 45:32

Yes, I love that. 

Robert Maldonado 45:35

Because it's up to us. It's all happening in our mind, in our psyche. And these powers are really what our mind is. Our psyche is this incredible play of mythological universal forces that are going on, but we have access to it if we're brave enough, powerful enough to accept that. Right? To accept responsibility for our life.

Debra Maldonado 46:03

Great. Well, what a great talk today, let us know what you think. I know it's Fourth of July, so a lot of you are not listening live. So I'm sure we'll see you on the replay. Post your questions. And those of you who are new to our group, we have some new members this week. Welcome. Glad you're here. And we hope we can open your mind to new possibilities in deeper work. And it's not it's actually creativity and imagination, and more expansive than just kind of the heavy stuff that we're all used to. Let's keep let's make life an extraordinary adventure, internaly and externally. 

Robert Maldonado 46:43

I concur. 

Debra Maldonado 46:46

You concur. 

Robert Maldonado 46:46

All right. 

Debra Maldonado 46:46

Okay. Well, take care everyone. Have a fabulous rest of your day, and we'll see you soon.

Robert Maldonado 46:52

Take care.