Science v. Spirituality

In this episode we discuss the decline of spirituality in the age of science. We will cover:

•  How science is making people lose faith in their spiritual practices.
•  Why science cannot answer the deeper questions about life.
•  How science and spirituality can co-exist in the world today.

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Transcript

Science v Spirituality

SPEAKERS

Debra Maldonado, Robert Maldonado

Debra Maldonado  00:03

Welcome to Creative Mind Living, a podcast for personal growth based on the works of Carl Jung neuroscience and Eastern philosophies. We're your hosts Debra Berndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind Coaching. Hello, everyone. 

Robert Maldonado  00:23

Welcome back. 

Debra Maldonado  00:24

Welcome to Soul Sessions Friday.

Robert Maldonado  00:29

That's right. And today we're talking about mysticism and science. It's a topic we've been wanting to do for a while.

Debra Maldonado  00:39

We always say that.

Robert Maldonado  00:41

And the challenge for us is how to fit it in to this idea of coaching. But it fits in really well because if you think about Jung's work, he was accused of being a mystic for a long time and still is considered on the mystical side more than the scientific side of things. Although, if you read his work, he always insists he's doing empirical work. 

Debra Maldonado  01:13

Yeah. And I think overall, globally, we see the world is having a lot of problems and a lot of, you know, the destruction of the natural world is actually one of the biggest problems we face. And what is scientific advancement and mechanical advancement industry has created a lot of that. And then also I think people look back at these ancient cultures, and they say, Oh, they weren't as advanced. They were really mystical and it was almost like they're not as advanced as someone who believes in science. But when you look back at even the Aztecs, they were advancing Egyptians in mathematics and all those things, but they also had the mysticism. And we kind of dropped it. So, when we think about science versus mysticism, we weren't going to talk about how we have to bring it back into our life, mystical experiences, but also not negate science. How do we integrate them both? And how do they actually go together? But let's start with what is science? And how would you describe science? And how would you describe mysticism so people know that distinction?

Robert Maldonado  02:37

Let's define our terms. Yeah, so science is, essentially it's a technique developed. It actually goes back to ancient times. If you think about the Greeks and some on the Indian subcontinent, people were applying a lot of the scientific methods already. But it didn't really become a real way of working until after the Renaissance and the Enlightenment came along. And people really started developing it as a way of doing work and of structuring society based on scientific principles.

Debra Maldonado  03:24

Well, would you say that that's where, in that time of enlightenment is when people started doing alchemy? And they kind of, and then that became, they stripped away all the mysticism from it and made it a science?

Robert Maldonado  03:41

Well, alchemy is a much older science. It goes back also to the Egyptians and even probably before then, but chemistry came out of it. You know, the scientific method. And if you think of physics, which is kind of considered the hard science in Western civilization, it was developed by Newton, who was a mystic. Basically 50% of his writings were about mystical topics, and the other half was about scientific calculus. And he was working on all these different ideas. But his idea was that science was a tool to be used in order to understand the way the physical universe is structured. But it was never meant to replace a whole worldview. It wasn't the intention to say, let's throw away everything else and just go by the scientific method because it's like narrowing your vision down to a very narrow slit of reality and saying, this is all we're going to focus on. And that's it and throw away everything else.

Debra Maldonado  05:03

So back to defining science, the scientific method. It's basically measuring things that you can see or perceive with your five senses.

Robert Maldonado  05:13

Yes, that's empiricism. The empirical method is to observe, measure, weigh. And it begins with the observation. And then you formulate a hypothesis. And then you experiment to see if it works, see if you can predict how things are going to behave based on those.

Debra Maldonado  05:35

And the thing about science is it kind of is like a religion in a way because it's really like, you know, you've taught me so much over the years about science and I'm kind of thinking about it in a different way. One of the things you mentioned, one time, when we were talking in one of our coffee talks, is this idea that there's no such thing as it's proven scientifically. There's scientists, the truth Scientists. So if you see that anywhere, it's scientifically proven. There's no proof. There's always theories. And then the theory gets evolved. So I have a theory. This matches my theory or it doesn't match my theory. And what a lot of science does is actually challenge the current paradigm and theory and test it out. And so really, it's about, a scientist doesn't say, I want to just prove that I'm right. He says, I want to prove that I'm wrong or so I can make sure that I'm right. And so that scientific method is very important. And I think that if we think of religion or mysticism, a lot of times we think of organized religion. We never test the theory. We just assume that you just believe that this is how it is. And so there is something to science, and a lot of it is misunderstood. And then if everyone has their theories, and they kind of argue a lot and just have fun discourse around their theories, it's welcome the community, right? 

Robert Maldonado  07:05

Yeah, that's good science. That's the way it's supposed to work. But unfortunately, there is a lot of pseudoscience being kind of promoted out there that just wants to support their theory, and that's not good science. Good science invites skepticism and questions everything. Now, what is the, let's say, the definition of mysticism then as compared to this empirical scientific perspective of the world, which is really based on the material perspective. So mysticism, it's another form of knowledge. If you look at the ancients, if you look at the mystical traditions of the world, and this is separate from religion, it's not necessarily religion, although a lot of religions have mystical schools. So mysticism is a direct perception of reality, meaning, the subjective experience, your own experience of the world is giving you information directly without you having to rely kind of on external objective sources of measure.

Debra Maldonado  08:28

So it's like a self reflective, self awareness that you create. So it's something that you can only experience within yourself versus someone can tell you what you're experiencing.

Robert Maldonado  08:44

That's right. Nobody can really tell you what you're experiencing. You know what you're experiencing directly.

Debra Maldonado  08:51

And I think, a lot of you know, when I was first getting into spiritual work, a lot of what I was doing is like getting into intuition and all those things. And those are great, but we don't want to get lost in the magic tricks or feel like, like I always felt like I had to escape. I had to go to meditate somewhere and go to this other place to feel spiritual. And the world is mystical enough itself. I remember one time you told me you said, Just the fact that we're alive and that we're aware of ourselves, and that we're connected to everything that we can see, that's a part of our mind. I mean, what our mind has created, we should be in awe. We're having a spiritual experience right now in everyday life. And I think that science and mysticism have been separated. And it seems that oh, science is this kind of observation. And it's measurable, and it's material. And mysticism is something that, you know, oh, it's like a dream. You know, it's not really real. We can't measure it. And so we don't know if it exists, and it's almost like that is not as realistic. And then we get separated. And what you're actually really doing in the scientific method is having a spiritual experience but you don't know it. You're kind of thinking that these things are out there and I'm measuring it. But the fact that you're aware that these things are out there is a spiritual experience in itself. So, yeah, very interesting. So Jung, I mean, let's talk about psychology. I know a lot of you want to grow and withthe birth of psychology, it started out as a medical kind of condition. They treated people. They didn't treat normal, average people that were just kind of worried about their life. They were treating really ill people in, you know, mental hospitals. And they were trying to do these mechanical things to help someone break out of their state. So they would do shock treatments and put them in cold water and medicate them.

Robert Maldonado  10:56

Well, I've been teaching some of our students the idea of paradigms in science. So the idea of a paradigm is simply that it's the totality of the assumptions that a science makes about what's possible and kind of what the limits of that science are. It creates a bubble of possibilities. And then most people work within that bubble. They call it mopping up. So somebody comes up with a giant idea like Newton or Galileo or Freud. They come up with these big ideas that changes our perception of the world. And then, most of us then just spend the rest of our lives mopping up after them, kind of working out the details and working within that model until a new idea is born, a bigger idea. So if you think about what happened in psychology, you have too many currents. One is Freud, who was an atheist. He wanted to get spirituality out of psychology. He was willing, of course, to acknowledge that there's an unconscious mind. But he saw the unconscious primarily as a defense mechanism. You help us defend our ego.

Debra Maldonado  12:21

And so he was very strict in that time, like I said, people work in these mental institutions, and they were kind of moving things and it's like, well, they have an unconscious mind. And, you know, we can treat them through talking, which is this kind of new thing. But it was still the scientific method, even just talking or modern day coaching someone. It's a scientific method of I'm going to do something but there's nothing mystical going on. It's just, you know, I'm going to treat the way your brain is wired, basically.

Robert Maldonado  12:55

Yes. And today, we see it as he predicted that. Eventually there would be a neuroscience that would be the primary driving force in psychology. That kind of explains how the neurons work and how the brain works and processes information and creates this incredible, elaborate reality for us. And that's really what's going on. If you look at positive psychology, neuroscience, neuro psychology, they're all from the vein of what Freud was thinking. 

Debra Maldonado  13:29

This science is science based. 

Robert Maldonado  13:31

Yeah. An atheistic, non mystical, non spiritual, psychological perspective on the mind.

Debra Maldonado  13:40

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Robert Maldonado  14:30

The other current though, thank god, it's still with us.

Debra Maldonado  14:34

Jung came along.

Robert Maldonado  14:36

Is the Jungian perspective. He was almost the opposite, the shadow of Freud. He was very much willing to consider not so much believing or, let's say, basing a psychology on mysticism, but simply acknowledging that humans have had this tendency.

Debra Maldonado  14:58

They call it the god image. Right? The God Imago. They have like an image of God or spiritual images. 

Robert Maldonado  15:04

That's right. That's been with us since the beginning of time. And that the idea of material perspective, an atheistic perspective.

Debra Maldonado  15:17

To leave that part out.

Robert Maldonado  15:18

Yeah, on the universe in the mind is not going to get rid of it. It's not going to squelch that instinct and that need that humans have for transcendence, for kind of experiencing something beyond the personal ego mind. And, you know, you can see that vein of thinking through the humanistic movements in psychology, existentialism, down to today to some of the transpersonal psychology that still exists. And as well as the coaching of a jungian model, which we're practicing. So it's still around. But I do believe we need to merge both. We need to have a balance of both the scientific perspective as well as the more traditional, mystical understanding of the human being. 

Debra Maldonado  16:25

Because right now if we think about just the persona and shadow, the persona of the scientific method, the shadow is the new age way far, you know, no science at all. No testing, no theories, just kind of like ooh that person had the spiritual experience. Well, let's believe them and just follow them and so cults and things show up and, and charismatic leaders. And then they have this new kind of, almost religion and without the science. And so we see a lot of people talking about, like mixing epigenetics and spirituality and I could change your mind through changing your epigenetic. And they're throwing in the scientific things or trying to merge it to sound more scientific. But also we have to ask those questions. As science would look at it from what's the evidence. What do we know about the brain and all this stuff? So there's a lot of neuro nonsense out there. And so we really want to, we don't want to poopoo science and we don't want to poopoo the mysticism. We want to bring them together.

Robert Maldonado  17:39

Yes, and both are disciplines. 

Debra Maldonado  17:41

Yes. 

Robert Maldonado  17:41

Which have very precise definitions and ways of applying those ideas. And a lot of people, what they do is they simply pick and choose and say, Well, this is an interesting part of science. Let me just pick that out and mix it with this idea.

Debra Maldonado  18:04

Like a smorgasbord. Take this and that or the buffet.

Robert Maldonado  18:10

And that's where you get that blurry kind of confused understanding of, it's neither a good science or not a good mysticism. So, they do require some understanding, some thinking. You know, the Greeks had the these incredible ideas of rhetoric that yes, you need logos, which is the rational, logical mind to persuade people, which is kind of the scientific approach, right? That we're going to use rationality. We're going to kind of base our problem solving and society building on logic and reason. So you need logos, but you also need pathos, which is the emotion. Why do you want to create these things? You know, are they good? 

Debra Maldonado  19:04

What the meaning? What's the purpose?

Robert Maldonado  19:06

That's right. If we're creating artificial intelligence now, why do we need it and what purpose does it serve our humanity? And then here's one that I see that has completely really thrown a monkey wrench into our civilization is that we don't have ethics anymore. So ethos is the balancing point between those two.

Debra Maldonado  19:36

Especially on social media. People are just so

Robert Maldonado  19:41

Nobody likes anymore. Nobody's accountable. Nobody is willing to say I'm responsible for my life. Or it's my work my situation. It's all about kind of, you know, I'm just doing my job. I'm just following orders. I'm just following the system. Those kinds of ideas. So those ideas of balance, of reason and emotion are so important and we need to understand them. If we want to really create personal development systems, if we want to develop psychologies that really help people work it out in a balanced way, not just saying, Well, you know, we understand your neurology now. And therefore, here's the explanation of why you're acting the way you are or getting the results you're getting in your life. And we're going to rewire your brain like a computer. And while you'll be

Debra Maldonado  20:45

Repatterning and NLP and all that stuff is very science based. I also think that if you think about science and mysticism, science is based on external physics. The world and the mysticism is about the inner journey. And so I think there's still a lot of confusion with a lot of spiritual work. We talked about this a lot that spiritual materialism, where they're using spiritual things to get the material, like that's the prize versus the prize is the kind of higher consciousness and the awareness of why you're here and the meaning and purpose. And so it's that masculine feminine where the masculine is about action and external and logic and the feminine is more the emotion, the soul, and the purpose and things that you can't touch or feel, like with a like in a physical form. It's more of a creative, intuitive aspect. And we need both. I mean, we can't just be totally like, Oh, I'm just so sensitive and I can't, you know, just floating around through the world and not have a plan and just let the universe guide me. I think that I've been in those places where I just am waiting for a sign and living very intuitively. And then without that logical, masculine plan, it's like all your great ideas can never be brought to fruition. So we need both. We need structure, but we also need creativity. We need logic, and we also need emotion. And so when Jung was first starting out, I remember Freud was just like you're believing all this. You're studying astrology and and the psychic symbology, mythology, and alchemy. And he's like, you know, you're going into this other world. And a lot of people misunderstand. They think that Jung kind of believed all those things, like for real. He was studying them just because he was studying them because he understood that there's something here. Because from a scientific perspective, human beings are drawn to this stuff. There's archetypes and there's these patterns that are showing up. These human beings are having an experience of someone channeling with them or dead relatives visiting or, you know, what is happening in dreams. And also these dreams that are beyond just their personal experience, like why is the person dreaming about ancient Greece and actually true to form of what happened back there when they had no knowledge? Where did that knowledge come from? So he was really kind of stretching the bounds of psychology. And so that's where there's that fork in the road of the science based spirituality and psychology and then more of the Jungian psychology, which is more of seeing the human being as a spiritual, there's a spiritual element, acknowledging that there's more than just a biological processes going on.

Robert Maldonado  23:51

That's right. In humans, Jung definitely warned about leaving that piece out. And he was very much influenced by Nietzsche as well. They both kind of saw the tragedy of humans denying their spiritual essence. Because if you reduce the world to dead matter, there's just this material. You're going to wreck it. You're not going to respect it. You're not going to understand it as a living organism, as a living process. You're going to simply use material nature for your own purposes, for your ego purposes. And you're not going to experience the true reality of what the world is, the true meaning of it. You're reducing it to an economic number basically and saying, What is this tree worth? It's only worth $100 or something.

Debra Maldonado  24:59

The natural resources, right? How much oil? How much water do we have? How much wood and, you know, mining the land and fracking and all those things. We're looking at it's not a living thing. And then also the people around those areas that are destroyed by those economic processes of the material world. They're like, aren't there human beings involved in what's happening to them and why? And I think too, you know, we always have these conversations about kind of society and the corporate takeover of society. And there's not, like it's easy to say, well, the rich people are the bad people or the corporations are bad, but it's really this kind of collective consciousness that's happening with the masculine. It's almost like no one is responsible. So the corporate, like it's not the CEOs fault or it's a collector or even the government and all those things. It's a collective of this assumption of the material and profit over people.

Robert Maldonado  26:08

Very much so. And then if you think about the way companies are structured, you're creating like a social machine. 

Debra Maldonado  26:14

Yeah. 

Robert Maldonado  26:15

And then the social machine kind of runs on its own, and the individuals within that machine are simply doing their little piece. So nobody is responsible. Everyone is guilt free because they're simply doing a small piece within that social machinery.

Debra Maldonado  26:35

And we find a way to justify it in our mind. We'll justify working for a company that is doing destructive things because we need to make a paycheck, and we need to pay our bills and then we kind of almost push it aside.

Robert Maldonado  26:49

Yeah. And so the idea of responsibility 

Debra Maldonado  26:54

Social responsibility. 

Robert Maldonado  26:55

Ethics, right? The ethos of why you're building the things you're building. It's so important to give us that balance between reason and emotion.

Debra Maldonado  27:07

So let's go down to the personal level that affects you in every day is how does this affect an individual right now? Someone who is trying to, like there's a virus happening. There's pandemic. There's people asking themselves, you know, kind of hunkered down. And there's a loss of freedom and all those things are happening. And then they're thinking, Well, what do I, you know, I think a lot of people are asking themselves, What's the meaning of my life? And I think this is an opportunity for us to look at how much of my life has been led by the scientific method, which is the material world. What I can see and touch and feel has more power than what I can imagine and what I can create in my mind and my purpose in life. I remember when I was in the corporate world and I worked for a living. I don't work for a living anymore. I don't work. I enjoy my purpose. And I remember thinking, one day I will have a meaningful career. One day, I will live my purpose. One day, I'll do what I love. But right now, I have to pay my bills. And for me I was using the scientific method. And I was saying, Well, what is in my bank account? What can I, you know, what are the options? And my mind is actually only going to see the possibilities that I assume are there. And so on coming from that materialistic this is the reality that I'm dealing with and making a decision from that is a scientific method. Now, when I switch to that mystical, I know I'm meant for something more. I know I'm going to try to do the impossible. I'm going to try to do what I've been imagining and break free. That's when all the magic started happening in my life. But it's not like I didn't take action. I didn't have to market myself, and I didn't have to get, you know, go get training and learn, get certified as a coach so I can help others. But I needed to have both. I needed the structure of this system to work with. But then I also used my mind to say that okay, this is what my mind is telling me. The mystical part of me said, I want to create what I what in my dreams. And so it's going into that mystical place that actually creates a different reality. So I think ask yourself, are you looking at your life right now from the scientific method of this is what's real? This is what's solid. This is only what's possible and that I can measure into a taste and feel and touch and see. Or are you living with bringing in that mysticism of there's something more than just what I can see.

Robert Maldonado  29:58

Yeah, that's a good point because paradigms we know are very powerful. Most people do not even question them. Because it's the water that we swim in. It's like a fish doesn't question water. It's simply that's my environment, I mean, water. For humans, the paradigm operates as the water. It is the ideas that we swim in and we don't even question them. So the scientific paradigm has pervaded everything we do. Everything. It's in everything, the medical model to everything.

Debra Maldonado  30:38

A lot of people don't realize that therapy is a medical model.

Robert Maldonado  30:41

Yes, it's very much falling under the medical model. And it's a tragedy in that psychology and psychotherapy doesn't address the real human being. They're simply addressing a set of symptoms.

Debra Maldonado  31:03

Yes. 

Robert Maldonado  31:04

A disorder. 

Debra Maldonado  31:06

And then they're seeing that person as having that label. And then they can't be anything else. 

Robert Maldonado  31:12

That's right. And part of the ethos and the pathos and the logos of Jungian psychology is to see the totality that the totality of the human being in that model and being able to use a psychology that addresses the whole human being within their bigger environment within the collective. Not only that, then there's another dimension, which we're hoping to talk about later in another podcast. We're connected to the collective conscious. 

Debra Maldonado  32:00

Yes, that's coming up this month.

Robert Maldonado  32:02

Not that the collective consciousness, which is kind of what we're aware of is going on in the world, but the collective unconscious, which is like the reservoir of humanity's unconscious mind.

Debra Maldonado  32:16

And so, before we get to questions, I just want to say that so look at your life or how have you been living when you make decisions. Are you making them from the scientific method, which is I'm going to make a decision based on what I can see, touch, feel, sense here of what's possible and plus what I did in the past? So I'm going to take past experience. I'm going to look at what's current and then I'm going to make an objective, subjective decision based on my interpretation of what I can really sense, or am I making a decision taking that into account and bringing in creativity, intuition and the mysticism of the idea of higher consciousness that you can create your reality? You're the creator of your reality. You are the source of that creator. So it really is an interesting way to wake up. A lot of people think they're, you know, I remember I used to think I was so spiritual and then I realized I was more looking at it from that materialistic point of view. I really felt I didn't connect them. Like I had my spiritual meditations and then I would go out into the world and I would forget about my spirituality. And so we want to incorporate that. We want to integrate that logic and the creative. We want the masculine and feminine. And that's really what our coaches do. And I think I believe that our mission, Rob, you and I, is to bring this work to more people so the world can change. Because if everyone starts looking at the world as a possibility verses from just this is what it is, we are going to change. And the funny thing about scientific method is that many scientists used mysticism to come up with new inventions. Right? So it's like, oh, I knows that. Edison who did 1000 experiments for the incandescent bulb that he actually put himself in a trance and visualized. Einstein used meditation, right?

Robert Maldonado  34:39

He studied actually with BB Cannon. 

Debra Maldonado  34:41

Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Robert Maldonado  34:43

So he was very much aware of the mystical, Eastern spirituality.

Debra Maldonado  34:49

And Einstein, he came up with a theory of relativity by writing a light beam. He basically put himself on a light beam and visualized it. So the great thinkers of the future of the world that have moved society actually incorporated mysticism. But no one ever talks about it. They think they're the scientists. So there is that potential. And I think that the world is starting to move toward more scientific with AI and robots running warehouses and taking jobs away from people and making everything more about the bottom line. And the human element is kind of missing the soul of the person. And even with ourselves. I mean, social media, people are just blindly insulting people without thinking that's another person that has feelings and emotions. And so we need to bring that connectedness back that we're all part of the same, the same energy. We're all one. We're all much more powerful than we believe us to be in the human sense and to bring in that spirituality back into our world.

Robert Maldonado  36:00

Maybe the Dalai Lama is right. Western women are going to save the world.

Debra Maldonado  36:05

Yes. So we're going to train all the Western women in Jungian coaching. Before we go to questions, remember that our Life Coach Training starts September 15. And we would love for you to be part of it. And I would love to talk to you personally about that. So there's a link below. And we are so excited. We have a whole new webpage for the coach certification so I want you to check it out. There's a button below. And let's go to questions. Transforming self and others through research, transpersonal research methods and skills for human sciences and humanities is one of my favorite books from transpersonal studies.

Robert Maldonado  36:46

Nice. I've never read that but the that sounds right along the lines of what we're talking about.

Debra Maldonado  36:54

And we have logos equals masculine ethos is emotions and the ethos is the balance between the two.

Robert Maldonado  37:01

Yes ethos, it's the root word. Ethics.

Debra Maldonado  37:06

Ethos. 

Robert Maldonado  37:06

Yes. It's the balance that's needed to apply the knowledge in an ethical way to where you're not harming people. You're not harming the environment.

Debra Maldonado  37:20

Let's not harm anyone. Be kind.  Be nice.

Robert Maldonado  37:24

Yeah, of the best books about kind of that balance is The Tao Te Ching. Laozi is a master of that observation of nature and working along with it because he says, if you study nature and observe it, you can essentially create everything we've created now but without destroying anything. Because the more you work it, the more it gives you.

Debra Maldonado  37:51

Yeah. And that's what life is. It's if we give our life more, the more it gives us. But if we only live by the material and what we can physically sense and think, that's our limitation. We are going to live. It's actually almost our life becomes smaller and more tight and more restricted and more fearful. This is why people get depressed. This is why people are sad. This is why people get anxious because they don't know how to tap into that intuitive, soulful, creative self.

Robert Maldonado  38:21

There are scientists actually now, it's called biomimicry. They're studying the way nature designs forms animals and plants and applying it to technology. 

Debra Maldonado  38:35

Oh, wow. Yeah, so we're in a very changing, changing it but challenging and opportunistic time for the human soul to experience itself in a more powerful way in the world. And we are really excited to bring this work to everyone and take that coching model with the balance of psychology, with the balance of science into a deeper spiritual experience for people. And you experience it every day. If you don't have to go to a cave in the Himalayas, you can experience it every day because just being alive, just hearing us being in this world, breathing air on this planet that's hurtling through space at lightning speeds is a miracle. And we have to see life is a magical place.

Robert Maldonado  39:34

Absolutely.

Debra Maldonado  39:35

And that makes such an interesting and deep topic so much to learn and explore about life and myself. Thank you. Yes, we were excited for the next whole series. This whole series we're going to talk about the collective unconscious, and then we're gonna also have a session on dreams. So stay tuned for that. And again, training starts September 15. Please, if you're interested even in just doing the work going through individuation. If you love to study, you love to learn about psychology and yourself and want to have a deep transformational experience, this is for you. And you get certified as a coach, and you can use it in any way part time, or full time. The class starts September 15. And we're very excited about that and hope you join us.

Robert Maldonado  40:30

See you next time.

Debra Maldonado  40:32

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