The God Image in the Psyche

Jung talked about the God Imago or God image that every human being experiences. In this session we will have a lively discussion on the topic of “GOD” and what it means to you.

• What is the God Imago?
• How do we project the God Image on external things and people?
• How is the lack of understanding and misplacement of the God image the cause of all human suffering?
• How do you connect with your own image of God to feel happier and fulfilled?

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Transcript

The God Image in the Psyche

SPEAKERS

Debra Maldonado, Robert Maldonado

INTRO  00:00

Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Debra Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind, explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience in a deep, practical way. Let's begin.

Robert Maldonado  00:24

Welcome to Soul Sessions! Today's topic is the God Imago or the image of God.

Debra Maldonado  00:36

Yes. And what is the God Imago? A lot of people have this conception of God, but the God Imago is a term by Jungian psychology? By Karl Jung?

Robert Maldonado  00:51

Yeah, a good point because we definitely want to clarify that. We're approaching this from the psychological perspective. We're not talking about religion. And Jung's idea was simple. He says, if you look at human evolution and the way people have done their life throughout the ages, there's always that element of that relationship with the unknown, with the ultimate principle, with the divine, with God somehow.

Debra Maldonado  01:26

So even as cave people, we looked at the sky, and...

Robert Maldonado  01:29

Yeah, people used to set up little altars and put up their deer antlers, or whatever it was to convey that there was something sacred going on in their life. And he says, people, you're not going to get rid of it just because you have an iPhone. And all of a sudden, you say, I don't need that anymore, I have Google to tell me everything.

Debra Maldonado  01:48

Or science. I understand scientifically, why we have a brain and how our body works and why people die and all those things.

Robert Maldonado  01:58

That's right. It's a human need. And it seems to be a really important part of the psyche, of the human psyche.

Debra Maldonado  02:05

And so, when you say "it", you mean the image of having an image of the Divine.

Robert Maldonado  02:09

Having, yes, an image and some way of relating to that, some way of understanding it of incorporating it into your worldview.

Debra Maldonado  02:20

And why do you think Jung... Where did he come to the point of the purpose of the God image? Is it to make people feel less alone, less scared, give them comfort? What was his...

Robert Maldonado  02:34

He himself, I think he was after a psychology that would fill the vacuum left by the modern age, of tossing away the mystical, the poetic, the spiritual, in favor of the mechanism, mechanistic materialism that we see now predominate the world. And he was after a psychology that would fulfill that, that purpose that, let's say, shamanism fulfilled in an ancient village.

Debra Maldonado  03:16

So, a modern spirituality. But the question is, why does man have this function in their psyche that projects? Is it because we have a desire of that mystery? Like we can't really suppress that mysticism within us, like we're born with this aspect of our selves that wants to explore why we wait like to watch unexplained mysteries and all sorts of documentaries and wanting to know answers? Is that why? is it like we have that question and questioning of who we are built within us?

Robert Maldonado  03:55

Yeah, ultimately, there's is a quote that's tossed around every once in a while, where he says that, it seems that the ultimate aim and purpose of human life and consciousness appears to be as a witness to the creation. That's why we have this way of understanding the universe, is that that's our role to witness the beauty and the terror and the immensity of creation because otherwise everything would be unconscious.

Debra Maldonado  04:34

Like he was saying, he saw a bunch of gazelles grazing in Africa and they weren't conscious of themselves. If no one was here to witness that, it would just be there. They have maybe their little perspective but that self-reflectiveness that human beings have. So, in a way we do this with our everyday lives. We make meaning in everything. So, we make spiritual assumptions about why things happen for a reason and we're always trying to explain away the darkness and the tragedies and the struggles that we have in life. There's always this element in us trying to explain why does this happen. And so, the God image serves as, well, there's this deity that's going to make everything better or resolve the injustice of the world that we look to.

Robert Maldonado  05:28

Yes. So, if we look at Western mythology, and to some extent, the religious myths that have been central to the West, the idea that we are created in God's image goes along with this idea. The God Imago, meaning humans are an expression of that God image. And in the mythology, it's that God created us in His image, like, the Son and the Daughter.

Debra Maldonado  06:08

You're children of God.

Robert Maldonado  06:10

Right, children of God in the garden and all that. So, what does that mean psychologically? That would be the Jungian approach - What does that mean psychologically? So, the myth is essentially giving us a truth in allegory, in metaphor, in story form. What does that mean practically for us? And here, I think the Eastern, they have a more sophisticated way of understanding consciousness and the mind. And it helps us decipher the myth. So, let's say the mythology is saying you're created in the image of God, I'm sure it doesn't mean that God looks like us physically, that he has a body. Of course, that would be a very literal interpretation.

Debra Maldonado  07:06

The old man with the beard. I remember in church, raised Catholic, there was an image of God even in the Sistine Chapel, the old guy with a beard touching Adam, and there's God and man and the children of God.

Robert Maldonado  07:23

Yeah. And mythology is beautiful in that artistic and poetic sense, but it wasn't meant to be interpreted literally. Because obviously, it doesn't make sense that the creator of the universe would have a body like a human being.

Debra Maldonado  07:39

And then also when we talk about Eastern philosophy, the idea of the material versus conscious universe, that there's a place called Heaven, or there's a place called Hell that we go to and then God's going to meet us there, physically meet us there.

Robert Maldonado  07:55

Right.

Debra Maldonado  07:56

Although it's a nice story that we'd like to tell ourselves to feel more...  less scared about death and life and why bad people won't get away with anything.

Robert Maldonado  08:07

You mean the myth?

Debra Maldonado  08:08

Yeah, the myth of Heaven and Hell.

Robert Maldonado  08:10

Well, that's the thing that these myths, they're not... When you don't take them literally, then they give you a deeper answer. Because you're understanding them as they're talking about, in a symbolic language. They're talking about something deeper, in that we are created in the image of God consciously,  that at the core of our human psyche is this pure awareness, this consciousness that is identical to the creative mind of the universe. That's what it means. And it's encoded right there in that mythology, but obviously, if you misread it, or if you think, well, that's just a story to calm our nerves and...

Debra Maldonado  09:03

Or feel like we're not alone in the universe.

Robert Maldonado  09:07

Right, but that would be a misreading of the mythology. Mythology, according to Jung, it spontaneously arises from the psyche, like a dream arises from the psyche.

Debra Maldonado  09:20

And so, these myths arose from the human psyche in a way to explain the higher mysteries of who we are. But then it's just like a dream. If we take it literally, and we don't look at it from its mythological messaging and symbology, then we miss out. And that's really the great work of Joseph Campbell, Marie von France. They talk a lot about myths and what they mean to us in bigger ways. And so, I love this idea that the human makes... like the psyche creates myths, we create stories. That's why we love movies and stories and reading and fiction and characters. And even get caught up in like a story of the news, it has a story to it. We relate to things in a story way. There's a character, there's a place, there's this place we're moving to. It's kind of the way we structure our experience in our physical world and then how we explain it to ourselves. So, we were created in the image of God. So, what is the implications on this idea if we're created in the image of God? What does that mean to us as in a modern world and trying to understand our spiritual nature? What does that mean?

Robert Maldonado  10:43

Yeah, because we definitely don't act like it. Going back to Eastern philosophy, the Upanishads especially, the way it's explained is that our consciousness, as it becomes embodied in human form, we're confused. We get confused because all of a sudden we're seeing a lot of things in the world - objects and separateness. Instead of experiencing the oneness of consciousness, we start to see fragmentation in the world, like me, against the world, me against other groups, me against other people or...

Debra Maldonado  11:34

And another fragmentation would be time as well. Space and time.

Robert Maldonado  11:40

Space and time, that's right. And name and form as it says in the Upanishads, that we start to see, name and form and identifying that name and form as separate from us. And that confusion then covers up the reality.

Debra Maldonado  11:57

Or the God image within us.

Robert Maldonado  11:58

Or the God image within us, which really translates as the ability to create like God, which is through thought, through the creative mind itself.

Debra Maldonado  12:10

So, when a lot of people... A lot of people talk to me. I just got a message from someone asking me about the universe and a sign from the universe. And I said, Well, you are the universe. So it's you're giving yourself a sign, what do you want it to mean. So, this idea that there's this other... something besides you controlling your life or outside of you that you don't have any access to, that you have to pray for or ask for permission or is making the fate decided upon you? There's this idea that if it's God's will - inshallah, God willing, - if that's the way it should be, then that's the way it should be. And so, I think that could lead to passiveness of not really creating your life because you're waiting for God to answer. And then also feeling like God's punishing you when bad things happen like you're being punished, like a parent. And I remember when I read my very first self-help book, I was raised Catholic, I went to church every Sunday, didn't miss a holy day of obligation. I thought, if I miss church, God would punish me forever. And I would be single forever. I thought I would have eternal damnation. That's the seriousness of my faith. And I loved church so I didn't mind it, but it was just like... I felt like it was an obligation, like the holy day of obligation. And when I read a Louise Hay's book, the first book I read was You Can Heal Your Life, my friend gave it to me. And it said your thoughts create your life. And I said, Hold on! Hold the phone here! Why didn't anyone tell me this? I thought God created my life. So, if I think something, I can actually create something. And to me, it was like it busted the myth, it busted this... It shook my whole paradigm of how I approached life. All of a sudden, I started to feel I actually can have some control. Everything for me was about waiting for God to bestow on me this luck, this... basically, almost giving away my responsibility for my life that God... as long as I follow the rules, God's going to reward me. And it's like waiting for a parent to say, Okay, honey, you can have your cake now or your cookie or your gift. You get that. And so, it really did change. And I think having people understand the God image and that we are an aspect, we are the divine, and that we can create our life, can change... It's a paradigm shift. And that's really what happened. I was like 24 years old and I said, Oh, my God! I've been praying for this outside force and now I can just think better and say I love myself and I could love myself. All these things.

Robert Maldonado  15:03

Yes, but that's a very preliminary...

Debra Maldonado  15:10

That was my first step. 

Robert Maldonado  15:11

Yeah, exactly. The first step. Because that's not really what's happening. When you think, Oh, my thoughts create my life, but you're thinking from the ego perspective. You're still thinking from...

Debra Maldonado  15:24

I want to get stuff.

Robert Maldonado  15:25

Yeah, exactly. My ego can get the things that it wants from the world. That's already buying into that separateness.

INTERMISSION  15:36

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Debra Maldonado  16:09

Yes, so it wasn't a complete transformation, but it was a shift from, I do have some power, but then how do you use that power? I see a lot of people want to use the law of attraction or manifestation, but they're manifesting from ego. And they're not realizing... They're still thinking that that thing out there that they want... And this is where you get into projection of the God image, of that money is God, that relationship is God, the people, my fans are God. They're my God, like that idealization of the material world. And even in the Bible, they talk about the love of money is the root of all evil. Not actually money, but it's the love of money. It's worshipping...

Robert Maldonado  16:55

The golden calf. Sure enough.

Debra Maldonado  16:58

Yeah, or the idea that don't have or honor another god besides me. It wasn't that some other god is... it's bad to look at other religions. It was more like you're projecting the God image out there. So, that's kind of where I had to... But you have to take that first step. You can't go from very strict religious dogma to enlightenment. You have to take the steps. So, we've all. Many of us have taken that step of, Oh, my thoughts create my life. Let me work on my thoughts. Let me start manifesting things. And then we know that there's another level. And that's really what we want to do. Or else we are projecting that God image on... My soul mate is God. I win that money, manifesting million dollars. That becomes the God.

Robert Maldonado  17:51

This has been one of the really serious criticism of the New Age thought and that kind of movement to say if our thoughts create our life, then why do we need deeper work? I'll just think my way through this. But the whole idea is that it requires a meditation, discipline, study, focus to shift from that misperception of we our ego and there's things out there that I need to get from the world, to that higher consciousness, which is that the God image, the realization of the God image from within. Then your thoughts really just directly create, because you're not filtering them through the ego idea of fragmentation that you're separate from the world and that you need, or that you're in lack.

Debra Maldonado  18:56

And so, what we're really doing, especially Jung's individuation or coaching method, is all about individuation. So, it's not just about getting a short-term fix, a quick fix for your goal and feel that high. But then you know it doesn't satisfy you. It's actually really, really having a direct experience of your divine nature. And that is... It's like you can have a little teach a man to fish and then he'll be wealthy and rich his whole life versus just hand him one. And so, your ego settles for the short term. The ego is all about the short-term and to alleviate pain, short-term. It doesn't have that, How can I expand and how can I grow? It just asks for just enough. And so, if you stop there, and you just say, I just want to manifest and put my vision board together and you're coming from ego, it's never going to be enough. And you're always going to feel that, No matter what I do, it's not enough.

Robert Maldonado  19:58

Yeah. And there from that perspective we see then Jung's idea of individuation, meaning the process of self-actualizing yourself through your work in the world, it's a very practical idea because it says if we cannot deny that divine element or the need for it, the need to relate to it, then we have to figure out a psychology of how do we integrate that into our everyday life. Because it has to be practical. It can't be just for people that go off to the monastery, into a cave to meditate. If this is a genuine human need, how do we express it in 2020? With the way we live now. And individuation gives us that model. It's a map of how do you proceed to, first of all, to go beyond this idea that you're just your ego and persona.

Debra Maldonado  21:09

And even we know, that when you create from ego, your thoughts aren't what creates your life as much as your unconscious, your shadow creature life. And so, if you're not conscious of your shadow self on the first level of individuation, you're going to attract what you fear. And so, if you're coming from ego, it's almost like you want something, but you're pushing something away. So, you're really never free. You're just trying to survive. And so, I say, when you're chasing something, you're actually running from something else. So, how is that freeing? So, you're thinking, I want to have more money, but you're running away from struggle with money. And so, it's you're holding both at the same time - I want to find a partner, but I don't want to be alone. I want to push away this lonely woman who gets heartbroken, or I don't want to get my heart broken, so you're limited. And then you get that. It's almost like a safety net what we have, because if we really had the full power of our divine self at us, we would create all our fears all at once. So, there is that ego creates that safety mechanism, where we have this narrow way of creating that keeps us. So, a lot of people will tell us they've done a lot of personal growth. And they really see little changes, but they haven't really had that big transformation. It's because they haven't individuated. So, that ego just makes it a little better. You feel a little better, but you're not really having that big transformation. And then in individuation, after you do the Shadow Work, it's like be careful what you ask for because now every time you have a thought or an idea, it comes really quickly. And so, it has that rapid, expansive, creative force that it involves much more responsibility than just the ego's keeping you like a child. You give it a little... You don't give it too much freedom because it doesn't know how to handle all that power. And so, we are never really truly creating on a deep... in a true way until we, as Jung says, make the unconscious conscious and work with the Shadow Work, individuate from the ego. And then when you're creating from the god in you, that's everything changes. I want to ask you a question, though. I think a lot of people have a resistance to accepting that they're the divine, that they have... It almost is like they need to project it out. Why do you think that is that people have a hard time saying, I am God? Because is it religion? Is it just the ego doesn't want to be grandiose? There are some people that do say that and they're narcissists. But is that the fear of us accepting that? That why we naturally resist it?

Robert Maldonado  24:08

I think there is a natural barrier for people that aren't ready, because that's precisely what would happen if you misconstrue the idea and you think I am the divine. From the ego perspective, that would create a very grandiose, inflated ego and thinking, well, If I'm that divine, that means me as my personal self, am all powerful. And that's not what nature wants us to do. The nature wants us to be ready for that naturally. And so, Jung says there's a natural mechanism of looking inward. And if you notice, your dreams are always giving you these mythological symbols. And he says the God image is in there. It'll show up. If you do enough deep work, if you focus in on what's going on in the deeper psyche, you'll start to see that it's talking about this metamorphosis, this Hero's Journey that's going on in your psyche. And so, there is a natural defense to prevent people that aren't ready to go there. But once you prepare yourself, and you have the right understanding that you are not the ego, you're not the personality, that it's an important part that you're playing as almost like an actor playing a role... Jung's idea of the persona comes from that Greek theater of these actors having a mask that would amplify their voice, and project their personality, so that people could see them. That's essentially what we're doing with our ego persona. We are amplifying our particular way of seeing the world and saying, This is who I am. But who is the writer of the play? Who is the author that's creating the stage and the scenes, and all that? That's the Divine Self. That's the true self in us. And the process of individuation is about realizing that. Realizing your true self. Not the role that you're playing. It's not to get rid of the role that you're playing, but to understand that you are playing a role.

Debra Maldonado  26:40

And so, can we take a step back and talk about how this shows up? Someone asked a question earlier, and I thought this would be a good place to ask this. Is that in the beginning, since we do have this God image and we project it out into the world... The first people we really project this God image on as children, is our parents. And then we see them as the source of everything. And we don't even understand the concept of God intellectually as a child. And then as adults, as women or men, we project that image, onto our relationships, onto our bosses, authority figures, onto things we feel will give us power. We end up projecting all that. So, how do we retrieve that projection? I got a little sniffle. How do we retrieve that projection? And I know the process is the individuation but that was one of the questions that was posted in the group earlier. So, wanted to address that.

Robert Maldonado  27:41

Yeah, it begins, like you said, with the intellectual understanding that the persona and the way things appear to us is not all there is. You have to start there because as we develop our ego, it's based on that assumption that there's a real world that you're perceiving, and you're creating this sense of self, this I in response to that. So, to let go of that is not an easy task because it's giving you a sense of security, safety, identity in the world. So, it's a very powerful thing to be able to say, maybe that's... This is not who I am.

Debra Maldonado  28:40

And it's like the ego, the I, wants to protect its reputation. And so, for it to identify with the people, like as shadow elements, the people that trigger them out there and to accept, even in a positive way, that I'm really seeing myself or an aspect of myself is... It's like Jung says that the shadow are the things that are too light and too dark for us to accept on our persona level. So, the divine would be way too light to accept this is me, I'm seeing this person I'm in love with, I'm seeing my divine self. It really is a hard thing. Or the worst person in the world, the opposite, this terrible person that we think is an awful person, that there's an aspect of me... We're all one. We're one with everyone. And that, I think, is such a hard concept for people. And the only way we can do it, in my opinion, is... the work is that little by little you practice. Remember, working with your shadow, doing the dream work, understanding your dreams. For me, it's like each time you work with it, you get a little better understanding. Oh yeah, I'm really seeing my mind. It takes a while. It's not an intellectual. Like I read it in a book and now I get it, and I'm going to live like that. It's a process. And it will take for the rest of our life to really fully maybe reach enlightenment but we get those glimpses every day. We start working every day. And the more we remember, through direct experience, the more power we have to direct our life and be really truly connected to the divine in us.

Robert Maldonado  30:25

Yes. So, from the Western perspective, then the mythology helps us because the story is about this old person or this whole idea of ourselves has to die. It has to die, not in a literal sense but that we have to transcend it somehow.

Debra Maldonado  30:49

Which is like Jesus sacrificing his body and then resurrecting those myths of resurrection and reemerging. And they're all through different myths.

Robert Maldonado  31:02

All throughout the world in many different forms, but the same idea of this falling away of the old pattern, and the rebirth of a new pattern. So, it's a natural process. It's been going on in human nature forever.

Debra Maldonado  31:21

And we see it in small ways in our life. We grow back... Like for me, when I went back to my high school reunion, and I was like, Oh, I'm a much different person than these people. We were so close when we were 17. And they're so different now. And some friends, I'm still friends with them. We're lifelong friends. But you see the majority, how much you've changed and how much you've grown. You've been outside your family, you're not the little girl anymore, you're not the little sister, you're now this powerful executive. And so, we transform a little bit on the persona level. That evolution takes place, we become from the child and in puberty, we become the adults, young adults. And then later on in life, all those stages. I think it was Maslow that talked about the stages or? No! Erikson talks about the stages of life that we go through. But that's an external, basically shift. We're just creating a new persona. But what we're talking about is that deeper shift, and we're realizing who we really are. So, there are two different paths.

Robert Maldonado  32:29

Yeah, they're... Now, we need both East and West. So we need, let's say, the mythological story that connects us to our dreams and our mythologies or stories. But we also need the more sophisticated understanding of what is the mind and what is the consciousness that makes the mind work. Because that's essentially higher knowledge. It gives us a deeper understanding of what is that transformation about. Is it really safe? Or should I trust this sense that if I let go of my ego, there's not going to be anything there to catch me? Because from the ego perspective, that's how we feel. We feel that, Well, if I let go of this I that I've created for half of my life, what's going to happen to me? But if you have that higher knowledge, it tells you, you're not your mind, just like you're not your body. You have a mind. You're experiencing your mind body but there's something deeper there, that pure awareness that's there. And you can have a direct experience of it. That's what the East is teaching us that you can sit and meditate, but you have to know what you're doing. And have a direct experience, meaning it's not about believing, it's not about trusting somebody else in what they're telling you. It's, can you experience that for yourself?

Debra Maldonado  34:08

Yeah, it's still so hard for people because you see people talk about the universe, and the divine is going to come in and give me... It's almost like this magical... We want to believe there's this other magical, something separate from us, that's going to take care of us, the fairy godmother, the Divine Mother, the universe has my back, like this kind of other bigger force. And I think it's really hard for us, from an ego perspective, coming from the ego to accept that we are divine. And I think maybe because the ego knows that it's going to dissolve away, it's not as powerful as it thinks it is. And it's like handing over the power to something greater. So, it's letting go of that lower nature of our human self. Not completely, because we need it to live in our body, but to allow this other force within us, the wisdom within us, to express itself through us. And I think this is so important for people to understand because if we are the divine, we are the God image, then we're here to make the most of this life. Why would we... If we had everything, why would we incarnate into a body? And it's because we... the god in us wants to experience an aspect that only this physical body this moment, can give it. And so, it's hard to, I think, conceptualize because we think in time and space, and we think in name and form. And the real true concept of oneness just blows your mind. And even the people that do quantum physics, the research and theories, they just... It's just mind blowing. It's almost like... They said, it's like a rabbit hole you're going into. And so, we have to just... The way we practice is this simple things of everyone can do this right now. Listening to this video right now, you know that there's a part of you that's knowing that you're listening to a video. There's a part of you this aware. So there's the physical, the senses that are taking in the information. And then there's another part of you that's aware of those sensations. So, the awareness is who you really are.

Robert Maldonado  36:35

The awareness, that's right. The awareness of our own mind. That's who you are. Not the mind itself. And that's where the West gets caught up, that we were so used to thinking of consciousness as arising from the brain, meaning from the body, really, because the brain is part of the body. But that's not really what's happening.

Debra Maldonado  36:59

And then it leaves the body when you die. This consciousness goes somewhere else, physically, materialistically moves somewhere.

Robert Maldonado  37:07

Yeah, it's the other way around, that our experience of the mind and the body, and the world, is arising from that pure awareness. That's the right understanding that the Upanishads give us. And that clarifies things a lot. It actually makes more sense. And we can account for things in a better way when we use that model.

Debra Maldonado  37:34

I feel more secure than thinking that there was some external God out there trying to tell me... make decisions for me, like this other agenda that's happening. But I know that there is my self and some level of me, the I, that the ego I, that loves me so much and that wants to feel the full expression of this individual experience. So, it's like having a collective experience and an individual at the same time. That's what we're all experiencing, is we're experiencing ourselves in many different names and forms at once.

Robert Maldonado  38:14

Yeah, as far as creating, we've always been creating. We've been creating but from a limited perspective. That's all. We've said... We're used to thinking that, Well, my life is a combination of the choices that I've made and the opportunities around me. But those assumptions as to where are the limits to what I am creating, are coming from that sense of ego that we've established as our identity. And often, it's very limited because the parameters for the limitations were given to us by other egos, other people that felt limited.

Debra Maldonado  38:59

Our parents' egos and the people around us and culture. And then most of what we... The key, though, too, is that we're not aware of all the things why we make decisions, what motivates us. We think we do. We make a decision and we say, Oh, I know why I did that. We explain it away, but we really don't know the true reason or the true motivation. And so, that's why we have to go inward. And so, to end, to really retrieve the projection is, first of all, remember that everything is a projection. So, you're seeing the world project out there. And know that everything you're seeing is you. And that is a really hard, hard thing because... I remember sometimes someone would annoy me, and I'd say... And you'd say, That's you, Debi. And I'm like, No, you don't understand! Everyone else thinks this person's annoying, too! Or we have trouble with this person. No, it is you. What is that reflecting in you? And our judgments on other people or judgments on our life circumstances are coming from our own mind. No one else had made rules. These are our rules. 

Q&A  

Debra Maldonado  40:17

So, do you want to get to some questions? Sure. I feel insecure thinking there's not an external God, I feel lonely. And nobody's taking care of me. How can I reconcile that with this new paradigm?

Robert Maldonado  40:30

Yeah. Well, again, that that observation that you're making is coming from your ego. So there's nothing wrong with it, we don't want to push it away, we don't want to deny the ego. Because it's really helped us, it's been very helpful to us getting here to this moment. It's basically a survival mind that, you know, kind of takes care of us. And that, that said, that being cared for peace right there, that the ego says, there must be an external kind of design or, or that's why people say, everything happens for a purpose, everything happens for a reason. Because they, they're kind of trusting that, well, something bigger than me, than the ego that then the AI is, is creating things and taking care of me. So there's nothing wrong with that perspective. But it's simply if you notice, it's a kind of a childish perspective, meaning that it's, it's kind of innocent, right? It's giving the power to something

Debra Maldonado  41:42

like not to responsibility for yourself.

Robert Maldonado  41:45

That's right, saying that unknown, that parent kind of feeling that is outside of me, is taking care of me. So if you notice, children are comfortable with that, but adults are able to, to kind of handle the bigger responsibility. So spiritually, that's where we're at, if we stay in that mode of the parent will take care of me. You know, there's some comfort in that. But you're not growing? Yeah, right, you're denying lives. drive towards bigger growth, responsibility, creativity. And that's the next step for humans is to accept responsibility of that divine creative power.

Debra Maldonado  42:35

And so it's not that this divine doesn't exist, it's that it's, you're connected to it already. So in a way, extend external guide, I would say will feel less secure. Because it's external, and you have to work your way back. Think about this idea that God loves you so much, he put you on the planet and set you up with this impossible test to be perfect. And then when you make a mistake, you're punished. And then if you're good enough, maybe you'll earn your way back, like who would buy that ticket? It would be? So it's just like from that mythology, it is kind of you have to question like, is that the god I want to believe in is that the guide or image that I'd want to see. And I find at first, it's scary to think that it's on us. But then at the same time, it can be once you get used to it, you realize, Oh, my God, this is so much more powerful. But it will take some time to really shift that. I remember when I was a little kid is to lay out on the grass in the summers. And I would look up at the sky and see all the stars. And I would think what's beyond those stars. And I'd be like, Oh, that's the galaxy. And then Okay, so what's beyond that? And, okay, it's one of the universe. And then what's beyond this universe? And then I was like, what are we contained in my mind started like going to this place of what? What is it physically? Are we in something like I started processing, and I got really scared. And I went, ooh, don't think about that anymore. It was too scary. It's just like in the Gita where Arjuna saw Krishna with all his glory. I think for us, it's it's easier for us to think in small, limited, practical physical form, than to think of these grand ideas and but we want to, we don't want to settle for that we want to we want to know that feels comfortable here. But as we stretch and start to explore and just start to open up, then it starts to feel,

Robert Maldonado  44:33

yeah. And understanding it as stages is useful that we're meant to go through a stage where we depend on that fatherly figure of God, the old, bearded man in the sky, that there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, that's okay. We're meant to go through that. But at a certain point, we're also meant to explore deeper to go inward and say Well, if I understand what the what the mythology is saying, it's saying that the kingdom of heaven is within, right that, that that divinity is within me, it's not necessarily out there.

Debra Maldonado  45:16

And in a higher scale, how is this idea of God and religion helps society? Well, I think religion in itself has a purpose. Like you said, I think it does serve like a symbol like the father image, I mean, it's something we're used to, a lot of it was developed during the time of kings. So the religion was the, you know, the priests were actually running Rome, and the, you know, the end, even in England, the Church of England. So there's this kind of authoritarian, it fit in very well, like you behave, you do good, and it kind of helps society. And then it also gave people I think people were naturally hungry for having something to believe in. And I think it's, it's good for, you know, it's better than not having anything to believe in. But that, like you said, it's a stage and so we can evolve, some people never evolve at that stage, they they still have that idea of God in the religious sense. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that we can have a more accurate way if we open our mind and see, like, look at other religions and look at other look at science and and start questioning, like, what is do I assume take this Bible or this text literally? Or do I see the myth or the message in there that's decipher that we can understand a little more about ourselves and with with the real messages, like the kingdom of God is within me. He didn't mean that inside yourself. There's this Heaven, it means that it's, it's, it's, it's a part of you already. I am the Father are one. A lot of

Robert Maldonado  46:55

Yeah, in most organized religions, there are usually individuals or particular groups that kind of carry that mystical tradition that connects to everyone. In other words, any mystic from any other part of the world and, and other traditions would recognize it immediately what they're teaching. So you see, in Islam, you see the the Sufi ease. I mean, it's the same language that you hear in mystical Christianity, through Meister, akard. Or even St. Francis, that there's a direct connection to God, that you your mind, or your spirit is already that divine. So it the view punished. Let's put it this way. The truth is one, the Wise call it by many names, right?

Debra Maldonado  47:53

Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And it's about understanding, you know, it's deciding if you're going to be open to under, like exploring that idea. And some people are feel like it's blasphemy to explore other ideas and other people that are ready to just question the life in question reality. I mean, that's what great science does. It's constantly asking the question, science is kind of a religion, in a way it's, it has these dogmas in science. And now with quantum physics, and quirks and all these string theory, they're really discovering that everything they assumed was real, was not and even Einstein, through, they've disproved some of his original theories, because they were looking at it from a materialistic standpoint. And so we we just keep growing. And I think that's part of the mystery of being human is to ask those questions, who am I? What is God? What am I here to do? Why, what is the purpose of life?

Robert Maldonado  48:54

Well, that's one of the reasons this this concept is so important of the the god image within, because we're reaching a point where our technology is going to give us the power to be like gods, to, to manipulate the genetic code, and to create artificial intelligence. And once we do that, you know, the genies out of the bottle, and we're going to have to be responsible for those things. We cannot be childlike anymore and say, well, the father out there is going to take care of us or some some divine force out there is going to take care of us. We're going to have to be responsible for the things we create with those things.

Debra Maldonado  49:41

I was wondering about the idea of God, that sometimes it's represented by a mountain in dreams and are there are other symbols in dreams that represent God. The mandola like something like this would be the divine image, a square actually squares are images of the Self. What else would you say were images in dreams of the Divine? Well, there's like the archetypes of the wise woman, the wise old man.

Robert Maldonado  50:13

Yes. Young's talks about this numinous quality of things. I think anytime there's a numinous quality, that's the Divine Presence. So you might see, it might be a burning bush, it might be a beautiful red cloud or a tornado, some some kind of natural force. But it's really talking about the divine power, right? It's, it's their symbols of the divine power.

Debra Maldonado  50:44

The Divine child, a lot of people have, you know, dreams about birth, you know, birthing a baby, and the baby's like, magical and it could talk, and it's that divine, you know, connection. And I think dreams are really the, the most amazing ways to really connect, because it's like, you're speaking directly to the God within. It's really amazing. And we're gonna be doing a dream challenge coming up. So pay attention to that announcement coming up earlier this month. Yeah, and what a great topic. And there's so much we could talk about, but yeah, so think about your idea of God and and maybe just ask the question, like, what is my resistance? or Why do I resist the idea of that I am God, or I am the divine, what is the resistance to that idea? And just examine that sit and meditate with that idea? Like, what is so scary about that? And you'll notice, there'll be a lot of questions about control, and responsibility. And trusting yourself to make the right decisions. It's kind of easier when I was younger to say, oh, God doesn't want me to get married yet. So I'm not doing anything wrong. And then when I read that book, I was like, Oh, my thoughts create my life. So I'm being negative and feeling bad about myself. And so I now I have to love myself now in order to find it was like, Okay, now I have to take responsibility for my dating life. And, yeah, it's really interesting, that challenge it, it's the power, but also the responsibility that scares people.

Robert Maldonado  52:22

Yeah. And psychologically, I mean, at the heart of all this, these ideas that we've been talking about is this, that the purpose of human life is self realization, meaning, realizing that you are the divine, in human form. And, and if you know that, then everything else makes sense, then you're able to, to really experience things in their true context, instead of thinking, maybe this will make me happy. And which way it can't be external things divorced of that process, will never make you happy, they don't have the ability to make you happy. Because the purpose is to find that self within or to experience that. That's what makes us happy.

Debra Maldonado  53:12

I love that you said that. And I want to end with this idea. Because I hear a lot of people say, Why did I create this negative thing in my life? Why did I Why do I keep creating what I don't want. And it's because there's two ask, there's the the divine element in us that wants to grow, and then the ego that's been conditioned. So you're seeing your conditioning in those ideas. And I think that a lot of people, they resist, they see the negative results in their life as something bad, where they're doing it wrong. But in actuality, if we're getting something that we're not pleased about, it's an invitation to discover who we are, it's seeing where we're off base where we're off alignment. And it's not to change it, change that block, so we can find love or so we can get money. But it's actually the gift is, oh, I'm forgetting who I am. And this this obstacle here is gonna help me find out who I am. And I think what happens though, is people say, I want to find out why I keep creating that obstacle. So I can have the material things I want. And they're approaching their personal development as a as a way to kind of get its egos needs met, versus the whole goal is to realize who you are. And when you realize who you are, then it flows. So it's like if not flowing, find out what that is why you don't realize yourself, your true self. That's the goal that I want to realize my true self and then I can get all these things. It's like placing those material things, above the desire to know that your divine needs to know the divine. Yeah. So with that said, Have a great rest of your week. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you for another session next week. If you have questions, you're watching the replay, we'd love to hear, hear them. And the mentors are here to help you as well. If you haven't signed up for your feminine persona archetype test, if you haven't done so already, and find out what your archetype is, and the mentors are here to help you do a free session to explore that, as part of the group, it's only going to be available for the next couple days. So if you haven't, it's coming down soon, and the opportunity is going away. So make sure you take advantage of that as well. And thank you so much, everyone who's here. Thank you for your comments and questions. And we'll see you next week. Stay

Robert Maldonado  55:43

we'll see you next time. Bye bye.

Debra Maldonado  55:47

Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to creative mind soul sessions. And join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with creative mind soul session. See you next time.