The Dark Knight and the Joker - the Anti-hero Archetype

In this episode we discuss Batman’s dark night of the soul as well as the psychology of the anti-hero. We also discuss the role of the Joker as the anti-hero’s shadow.

• Learn more about the Dark Night of the Soul and its transformative power.
• Batman’s need for purpose and his inevitable conflict with his shadow, the Joker.
• Explore how the shadow plays out in everyday life and ways to approach the psychological crisis of your personal shadow.

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Transcript

The Dark Knight and The Joker 

SPEAKERS

Debra Maldonado, Robert Maldonado

INTRO  00:00

Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Debra Berndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind. Explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience in a deep, but practical way. Let's begin. 

Debra Maldonado  00:22 

Okay, hello, everyone. Welcome. Yes, we are on our Soul Session Friday. We're getting excited for a retreat tomorrow. But today we're talking about archetypes. This theme of archetypes in movies. So, if you're a movie buff, you're going to love our series this month.

Robert Maldonado  00:44

Yeah, and it's December already.

Debra Maldonado  00:47

So it's been a great year for everybody. I'm sure we're all really waiting for 2021.

Robert Maldonado  00:53

No sarcasm, of course.

Debra Maldonado  00:55

But we are really excited to share this content with you. To really get people understanding what archetypes are, how they really are in our pop culture and we don't even realize that they're influencing our world and our cart [inaudible]. And I'm just really excited to share this juicy topic of the anti-hero and the trickster.

Robert Maldonado  01:19

Yeah, and it highlights a couple of things about our coaching process is: one, it shows that this idea, that the archetypes are not this abstract thing that just existed in the ivory tower of Jungian psychology, they are in our everyday life. And they're very present in art, in theater, in movies and literature, on and on. And they have a deep influence in our psyche even if we are not conscious of it. When we see these movies, they're like our myths. People used to go to these beautiful amphitheaters and see these plays. Then we watch movies. 

Debra Maldonado  02:12 

Or read books. 

Robert Maldonado  02:13 

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with it. That's the way we do our myths.

Debra Maldonado  02:16

It's almost as if we have to tell the story of being human in different ways. So we live through— One thing about movies is that — or any kind of play — is that you witness a story of someone else, you get to basically live inside another person's experience through the projection of the movie, which is interesting, because there's a projector. But when we watch movies, or we care about characters, we can get inside them in a way. And we're actually taking the journey with them as we go through the process. So that's why we— and you know, they say you go into a trance when you watch the movie. So you're basically— you forget about your ego, and you're totally enveloped in this character and what's happening — if it's a good movie, and it's good writing. And so we'll only talk about movies that have great writing, because that's really the key. And a lot of writers have — and actors — understand the concepts that Jung taught, which is the persona, the shadow, and the archetypes. So before we get into the Dark Knight, which is our theme this week, I just want to talk about what is an archetype just for people who hear the term but are not sure what it means. And how would you describe it, what an archetype is?

Robert Maldonado  03:37

Yeah, so Jung had this idea that if we look at the universe — and also he was very much looking at the psyche, the internal structure of the psyche, he started seeing these patterns. And these forms that are pre-programmed in a sense, we're born with them, we're born into them. And so he called these archetypes from Plato's idea of a pre-formed structure, or an idea that it predates the forms that we see in the world. So if you think of a table, for example, Plato would say, well, there must be like a mental construct that corresponds to a table that is universal. And then people create the forms of a table and build that from the archetype. So the archetype is like the blueprint that pre-dates the forms that we see.

Debra Maldonado  04:43

And so you can't see them directly, or you could see as the effect of the archetype, and the archetype not only are characters but their themes. There are like objects. There are also situations like the hero's journey is sort of archetypal journey.

Robert Maldonado  05:00

Yeah, now they're everywhere. People even in marketing and branding use archetypes to think through their brand strategies.

Debra Maldonado  05:11

Yeah. If we didn't have them, it would be like: where did the name— how do we know to name things and form things? And how does society organize itself, there must be some intelligence. And the archetypes are basically the blueprint of that intelligence. So one of the main ones that is very recognizable to everyone is the archetype of the mother. We've all have a mother, and everything in nature has a mother, and if you're a planet, Earth is your mother. And so there's this life-giving force. And so everyone has a different mother. It's symbolized by different things. There's divine like the mother Mary. There's Kuan Yin in Japanese culture, there's so many different archetypes as mother, but it's, again, this universal idea that we lay on. So when we are born, and the mother's there, the mother feels like it instinctively has a role. And the child has a role of being the child to the mother.

Robert Maldonado  06:08

Yeah, so really useful in psychology and art, in science, and culture of course. But in The Dark Knight and the Joker we're going to do a couple of things. First, we're going to look at the story from this perspective, then look at the mythology and the archetypes in particular. And finally, think about the psychology of how can we apply those lessons in our own journey of individuation?

Debra Maldonado  06:44

Yes, and so, I know a lot of women don't like watching violent movies. So this was kind of a pretty violent movie, The Dark Knight, a dark, very dark — Dark Knight. So but what we want to do is kind of take away that heaviness and look at the brilliance of the writing and the way the characters were developed. And the story of the anti-hero, which is Batman, which is this kind of shadowy character that goes in the middle of the night, and he's not flying in the streets, everyone loving him like Superman. He's just kind of this, like undercover hero, the antihero, and he in the movie and in different themes of his story some people think he's a good guy, some people think he's the bad guy. And then Joker is the archetype of the trickster.

Robert Maldonado  07:40

Big time, Jung would immediately have recognized him or did recognize him as the trickster. But yeah, let's talk about the Batman.

Debra Maldonado 07:53

THE Batman.

Robert Maldonado  07:55

He actually started out as a comic book character in the 30s. And was very popular from the get go because he's struck that archetypal nerve again.

Debra Maldonado  08:10

It feels familiar, right?

Robert Maldonado  08:13

Yes. And the backstory is that his parents were murdered right in front of him. So he was orphaned from early on and develop this fear of the dark and bats.

Debra Maldonado  08:28

He fell into a well, and there were bats in there and all came at him at once, it caused this trauma.

Robert Maldonado  08:37

Yes. Which represents kind of the hero's journey into the unconscious, into the underworld, and certainly facing the fear of the bat.

Debra Maldonado  08:50

Right, so almost like the comfort of the parent is gone and now he's in the world alone and he has to— now he's descended down into this well and has to deal with these bats. And then future in the story, he goes back into the well to face this fear.

Robert Maldonado  09:08

Yes. And the bat, we know, is a symbol of night.

Debra Maldonado  09:17

It’s blind too.

Robert Maldonado  09:18

The underworld. They live in caves. So it's associated with that darkness, the unknown.

Debra Maldonado  09:29

You don’t get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you think of a bat. You think, ugh. 

Robert Maldonado  09:31

Right, although they're mammals and they do a great job, and all that stuff. But yeah, their association is with vampire bats of course, and the night and—

Debra Maldonado  09:44

They think about back in the 30s to vampires were, you know, that kind of thing.

Robert Maldonado  09:49

The Boogeyman? But they're also the animal instinct of course. The animal nature that is comfortable in that darkness, primal ooze of raw life.

Debra Maldonado  10:09

And so, he faces the— well, he faces what he fears in the bat, and actually integrates them. So that is his— but his goal really is to be the hero and put order back in things because he was a victim of a crime. He wanted to be the anti-crime guy, like crime fighter. And so that's where he got his passion, his purpose is “I want to put order in things”. And so in every great movie, every great drama in our lives, we always have the adverse opposite force, which helps us basically play our role. If we didn't have the other force, he can't be a hero without the protagonist— the antagonist. So the antagonist was the Joker. And that also has deep archetypal— deeper than we think, he's kind of the trickster archetype, which is the person that throws chaos into things. And jokes. I always find that the trickster archetype, if it shows up in a dream, it makes you kind of— when you take things too seriously. Have you ever had that dream, where you feel like you're on a mission to do something. And there's this kind of weird character getting in the way and kind of teasing you or pecking at you or causing chaos for you to not fulfill your duty in the dream. And in life we have those trickster characters, and they are the chaos. And so order and chaos are two sides of the same coin. And so the only way you'd want order is if there's chaos to be ordered. And the chaos wants— you can only have chaos if there is some idea of order, because it's the opposite. So we think about that duality. And so the two of them were playing off, one is trying to put city back in order and the other one's trying to mess it up. And like you and I were talking earlier about that, it's about taking over Gotham, the soul of Gotham. It's a battle for the soul.

Robert Maldonado  12:31

Yeah, there's a beautiful scene in the movie where Batman captures the Joker, and the Joker is hanging upside down. And they're talking about “What are we fighting about”, in a sense—

Debra Maldonado  12:48

And it's interesting how he was hanging upside down like a bat. And he's Batman. And he was up, you know, so there were like a reverse, kind of showing the duality, and then the inverse of they're on different planes.

Robert Maldonado  13:00

Yeah. And the Joker says “I don't want to get rid of you. I need you. You compliment me. You complete me.” Because they are the opposite of each other in a sense. The Joker is the hero’s— or in this case, the anti-hero’s shadow in the Jungian terms. Now, Batman is an anti-hero in the sense that he's not the pure hero of a Boy Scout. He's conflicted. He's flawed.

Debra Maldonado  13:36

He doesn't have really super powers. He just has money. He's a billionaire. So he has all these gadgets and stuff, but he can't fly. He can't do any— he has no super strange like a regular comic book hero.

Robert Maldonado  13:49

That's right. Not only that, his intentions are not as clear as a hero’s intentions to do good. He is a little violent and can be over the top and kind of lose control of his anger and his sense of wanting revenge. So in that sense, he's the anti-hero. He's imperfect.

Debra Maldonado  14:14

He's the human, he has that human side that many superheroes in a lot of the comics don't have, they're gods or—

Robert Maldonado  14:23

Yes.

INTERMISSION  14:25

Are you looking for a satisfying career that has meaning and purpose? Are you seeking a path of growth, and wish you can have it all in one program? Well, our Jungian life coach program does just that. It gives you a new career as a certified life coach, as well as takes you through our Jungian methodology to help you become your true self, and make amazing transformation in your life and the lives of others. So visit jungianlifecoach.com, click on Apply and speak with me, Deborah, directly, so we can discuss your future and possibilities in becoming a certified life coach. That's jungianlifecoach.com 

Robert Maldonado  15:14

The anti-hero’s shadow, of course, is really darker than the average person in that they're trying to do something good, meaning they're pushing away the really dark elements of their psyche. And so the Joker represents that part of Batman's shadow, the things that he's pushed away, and he's fighting against very clearly.

Debra Maldonado  15:45

And I love what you said that they're both fighting for the soul of Gotham, where Joker wants to make chaos in Gotham and rule it, rule chaos. And Batman— the Batman wants to put order back and fight crime and, you know, get rid of the bad people and revenge almost of his parents, like avenging his parents. And that's kind of how we are with ourselves, these elements are— it’s a battle for our soul, basically, of who we're going to become. And another thing about Joker, too, in the story is — not the Dark Knight, but actually the movie, The Joker, which shows his origin story, which I thought was very interesting that he, you know, was really trying to be good, like, he wasn't an evil person in the beginning. He was just this, you know, he had some mental illness, they couldn't help him, his mother abused him, he had a really dark past. And he's trying to do good, like, he's trying to be a clown and trying to, you know, make a living and take care of his mother. And then the world just kept stepping on him. And then he basically transformed into “Well, I can't be good, then I have to be evil.” And so he had powerlessness in being a victim. So he became the oppressor, like, you know, these people that were oppressing him, he's like, well, that's where all the power is. And so he basically took back the projection of all these people that had power over him. And he basically reclaimed it in a very distorted way, which is not very conscious way. But that's what he was doing. He was taking that energy. And then instead of trying to get his life together, you know, we see him in the Batman movie where he — Dark Knight— where he is sowing chaos, like that's his little— that's where he gets his power from. And so let's go into the mythology now and the archetypes. This theme happens in all of mythology. I mean, we think about even in Christianity, there's the devil, that's the brightest angel in heaven descends to hell. And the devil is that temptation, the tempter, you know, always trying to, you know, set you off on the wrong track. And so that is a trickster archetype.

Robert Maldonado  18:08

Yeah, absolutely. And you see it in almost all mythologies that the Savior has an opposing element, and the trickster — the shadow in psychological terms, because light doesn't make sense without darkness. You need the duality to understand both. And in human affairs we’re simply, say, incarnating those cosmic forces.

Debra Maldonado  18:44

We can't just be good like we can't reject all the bad.

Robert Maldonado  18:51

That's right. So in the Joker, we see the classic trickster figure, and the trickster, Jung considered him to be the collective shadow. If you think about, you know, religious symbols like Jesus or any other kind of spiritual teacher, there's always that element of shadow of something opposing, whether it be ignorance in Buddhism or suffering in Christianity, it's the devil.

Debra Maldonado  19:33

I think also the ego’s kind of a trickster in a way because you're trying to do something with your life, you're trying to make a change, and that little voice in your head’s going “What do you think you are, you can't do this.” And kind of like being the spoiler of your goals, of your dreams.

Robert Maldonado  19:53

Absolutely. And there's always this battle between light and dark going on, but of course it's reflecting the balance going on in our own psychology, between consciousness. Our ego is kind of set up as the false hero in the sense, and the forces of the unconscious, which are more instinctual, they have that route in nature, but also lead to the divine awareness or the awareness of our spiritual nature. So always the path for the transformation of the hero lies within going into the unconscious process, meaning going into the underworld. So you see it in mythology always that the hero has the challenge of going into the underworld.

Debra Maldonado  20:52

And I think— when I first started doing personal development, it was all about clearing away all the negative, you know, get rid of my negative thoughts, get rid of my negative energy, just be positive, raise my vibration. And the problem with that is that whatever you push away, you're actually making real and you believe it's more powerful. So you're actually agreeing “This is bad and it has power over me, and I need to get rid of it.” So the best way to reclaim the power is to see it for what it is. And that's why when we do Shadow Work, it's different than the traditional coaching, you're actually going toward the things that scare you, you're going toward the things that you would see as negative or unappealing about yourself or about other people, and examining and opening up and trying to find not reframing it. So everything happens for a reason, but kind of looking at it from a true save “How can I use this to empower me” versus “How do I, you know, make my life— you know, where I avoid those things, or avoid toxic people or avoid negative things or avoid making mistakes or looking like a fool.” I love the idea though, when Batman goes back, the Batman goes back into the cave as Bruce Wayne. And he faces— he just sits, this is a scene where he just sits with his fear, all those bats, and then he rises out of that cave with this idea “I'm going to be the Batman”, and he wears his fear as his costume, he becomes integrated. And that I just think is a beautiful metaphor for how the process works is that you use the things that you disdain about yourself, or that you fear about yourself, that you fear that people will judge you for, and you kind of allow it to be a part of you. And if you accept it, then it doesn't have the same “I have to, you know, keep up this persona and not let anyone find out that I'm this or that or I can be angry sometimes.” And this brings us to more intimate relationships and helps us have better connection with — if you're in a business, to have better connections to your team and with the people around you, your customers. You're more authentic because you're just real. And if you think about it, when you meet someone who has problems, and they're open about it, you kind of feel closer to them than someone who's like “My life is so perfect, and everything's so great.” You're kind of like, eh, you know, they're kind of irritating in a way because you know they're not really being real with you, right?

Robert Maldonado  23:35

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because we do see this phenomena in modern culture that people think spirituality’s all about the light. But they want to avoid the darkness. But in actuality, in the darkness is the power that transforms the personality into its full potential. And without doing that Shadow Work, that shadow integration, then the ego just takes on the persona of spirituality, which is not real spirituality, it's another mask. And so real transformation involves understanding this shadowy figure. And so we can expect this kind of things to happen.

Debra Maldonado  24:21

Yeah, I forgot about that, that’s a good reminder is that we have to respect the trickster. I think this is fun, but it's a great example. And the thing is that these things happen in life. I think this is really a great learning lesson. Technology doesn't work the way you want it to. You're on a car trip and your car breaks down. You know, some weird thing happens with your credit card or your bank, and you just have to deal with these things in life. And then instead of being like “I just want my day to go perfectly every day and smooth, not have any problems”, imagine be able to go through the day and not worry that I could deal with whatever arises.

Robert Maldonado  25:07

Yeah, if you look at the way our ego functions, it's very black or white, it wants things to work out in a certain way and pushes away negative result. But in working with a trickster, or with a shadow element in us, we're open to that serendipity, to chance events happening. Because it leads us into paths that we didn't plan on going. But it's creativity. That is the essence of creativity, that there's this an uncertainty principle operating in the things that we do. And when you're open to it, then you see opportunities in those chance events, instead of focusing on “No, I wanted things to work out only a certain way". And so psychologically, it opens you up to the opportunities in your life.

Debra Maldonado  26:06

Well, I think that's true, because everyone— I mean, a lot of our clients are always perfectionist. And they're always wanting everything to go the way you want them to go. And not everything works out that way. And life is not certain. Like you can't get a guarantee. You don't know if you're going to be here tomorrow, you don't know if your loved ones are going to be here. You don't know if you have— like, for me losing my job when I was, you know, in my 40s, got laid off. That was unexpected, but I used it. And so that's where we can have power — is not— not putting the world in this perfect place. But knowing the center of power is within us, not in the world. I know, Shanti Deva in Buddhism talks about that — Pema Chödrön actually referred to this story of people wanting— imagine the world being covered with glass and rocks that cut your fingers, cut your feet. And how do you navigate the world with so much pain? And you want to just cover the world with leather, so you don't have to touch it and touch the pain. But she said “Why don't you just wear shoes?” And then that's kind of the controlling your mind as you navigate the uncertainty of the world. That's where the light becomes magical. And yeah, so the whole idea of the darkness, the antihero, and the trickster. Let's go to the third step, which is how can we use this knowledge as transformation for ourselves? How can we apply this, now we're not going to be a superhero. Well, maybe we can. But we're not going to go out and put a Batman outfit on and save— you know, fight crime, but we are going to do things that involve us facing the trickster and facing our own personal shadow.

Robert Maldonado  28:02

Yeah, in the individuation process, meaning the process of transformation, of going from thinking that you're just the persona, ego persona to finding your true self, your true purpose. It begins with facing your own personal shadow. Now your own personal shadow is very different than the trickster. But it has that element of chance and of kind of irritating you and showing up, being in things that trigger you externally.

Debra Maldonado  28:37

I would say, if you look at it, the trickster is going to cause— must kick up the shadow in a way like its job is kind of “Oh, you're afraid of heights? Well, guess what? You're going to get stuck on a gondola in the middle of Telluride”, which happened to me. And it's just gonna get stuck. Because I'm gonna— you know, it's a trickster element, like pushing on our worst fears.

Robert Maldonado  29:04

Yeah, that's a great example.

Debra Maldonado  29:05

But in a way it's helping us because if we didn't know what we're afraid of, if we didn't face what we're afraid of, we can never overcome it. If it doesn't give us an opportunity to transcend it.

Robert Maldonado  29:15

That's right. And most people misinterpret that as bad luck. Or as, you know “Here it goes again, I never get what I want” or something like that. And that's a misinterpretation. The mind is making that arise for you so that you can master it. So you can work with it, so you can realize it. So that personal stage of working with your personal shadow is really important in self transformation. Then at the second level is more the archetypal level where you're really dealing with a trickster now, because you're dealing with the collective unconscious, and there the archetypes come in, now you work in the world. You creating something new in the world entails that element of chance, of creativity.

Debra Maldonado  30:09

And you're tapping into deeper forces than just your personal history or trying to, like, shine up your ego and make it more confident, you're actually able to ride the power of these archetypes. So in our coach training, we teach our coaches at the end of the program, to, you know, connect with the wise woman archetype. Because you might not have that, born and conditioned to be the wise woman. So where do you become that? How do you become a leader? How do you become a teacher? How do you become a coach? You have to bring in this archetype element, this deeper part that's already within you, how do you access it? And how do you express yourself through it without an inflated ego, how to do it in a conscious way. And that's why it's really important to do Shadow Work before you do archetypal work. Because if you don't, you will inflate your ego, and it'll just— you'll identify as the archetype, the ego will say “That's me, I’m the wise woman”, and that's kind of creates a bigger shadow. Because what's the opposite of the wise woman is the fool. And so the trickster will tend to come in and trip you up. Yeah, I've noticed that too. When I was in— when I first started, when I would go out and do a talk, there was always this trickster person in the audience, you know, trying to, you know, get me off kilter, or that always happens. So I was on a TV interview once where I was talking, and the phone actually— some kind of phone or wire dropped from the ceiling, right next to me. And so how do you deal with those chaotic things? So yeah, it reminds you not to take yourself so seriously.

Robert Maldonado  31:55

Yeah, because in the mythology, the trickster is a shapeshifter. So he can become anything. Psychologically, what that means is that the trickster element, or the trickster archetype, is going to show up in our life in many different forms. So it can appear as a situation, as an event, as an accident, as a serendipitous event, synchronistic event.

Debra Maldonado  32:27

Like online live stream getting disconnected for no reason that never happened before.

Robert Maldonado  32:35

That's right. But it could lead to some unforeseen opportunity that would not otherwise be available to you unless that particular incident happens. And when you see it as bad luck, or disruption, you're misinterpreting and missing the opportunity. So psychologically it has a very important element of creativity, that if you're not in tune with it, if you don't align with it, if you don't give it its due place in your life, you're cutting out one of the most important elements of your life. So Shadow Work, working with a trickster archetype, and the other archetypes that show up in the individuation process — tremendous transformation takes place. And for entrepreneurs, this is really the key to success.

Debra Maldonado  33:37

And we work in the world. Whereas you step into being a coach and being trained and teaching others, there's this— we have to be aware of the collective world, and this idea of what is the trickster’s role in the collective shadow? And what is the collective shadow?

Robert Maldonado  34:00

Yeah, so if you think about culture, society, even at the world level, because most people are in ego level, or they're perceiving the world through their ego persona, they think they are their bodies. They think they are this personality that they have created, this mask, as Jung would say. So that misperception limits their life basically, because they're only looking at a very narrow sliver of the psyche, this persona that we create. That sets up a whole chain of events that creates that chaos in the world. Because when you're not able to integrate the shadow elements, the trickster elements, they work against you. Now those triggers, now those chance opportunities become stumbling blocks for you. They feel like—

Debra Maldonado  35:12

— me against the world, instead of “Oh, this is an aspect of me that I need to work with” versus “That's something external and separate from me”.

Robert Maldonado  35:20

So Jung warns about the culture being blind to the shadow elements, because it sets up the stage for opposition, for chaos. Just like in the Joker movie, he ends up going crazy and inciting violence and riots. That's what happens when the culture is unaware of the shadow element.

Debra Maldonado  35:50

And these Joker figures will rise to power.

Robert Maldonado  35:53

The projection, the mass cultural projection focuses on one individual that is kind of a crazy clown in a sense, that then incites those riots, that chaos. And from the individual’s perspective, it looks like “Well, I'm not doing those things. It's that person that's doing it.” But collectively, it's the unawareness, the unconsciousness of the crowd or the mob that calls it.

Debra Maldonado  36:28

The mob mentality that Jung called, and then they all kind of are on a spell of that leader, the charismatic leader. And that happens in a lot of different organizations and governments and different places, and families, you know, the chaotic leader of the family, and everyone's just kind of, you know, succumbing to it, and asleep to it.

Robert Maldonado  36:53

Yeah. So these are powerful forces, definitely. Jung emphasized this idea that there are powerful, powerful forces in the psyche. And that is precisely the reason he developed his psychology. It's not just that “Oh, I, you know, I want to transform myself and be the best person I can be.” It's that when we do our internal work, we're doing the best for ourselves and for the world.

Debra Maldonado  37:23

Yes. So whatever triggers us about the world is going to— people in the world and things that are happening in the world, we can use that like “Why am I giving this power? And where do I feel powerless in? And how do I reclaim— what can it teach me about myself?” instead of “That's bad, and I'm good, and let's just push this away.” Nothing gets accomplished that way, because that thing will still be there separate from you, and still. And I think that we, you know, working and integration like Batman— the Batman took the bats and integrated. My question to you is would you— not you but to the listeners. I’ll include you. What is coming up in your life that seems like a trickster, that’s a chaotic element, that you feel like it's uncontrolled or unexpected? And how can you look at that in a new way, as an opportunity to reclaim your power and become more courageous in your life? So instead of “let's only focus on the positive”, let's look at what's in our life that's an upset right now. What’s a worry? What's a thing that's kind of like a pebble in our shoe, or an irritating person, or irritating situation that we— a place we feel stuck in, that we feel like no matter what we do, something always comes in and causes chaos. How can we embrace it in a way as an opportunity versus trying to get past it. And I think a lot of people are like “I just want to get past this hurdle, so that I can be at someplace where everything's great.” Well, the hurdle is the way, the obstacle, as Marcus Aurelius says, is the way, and so the trickster is the way. But be careful, don't use the word [inaudible] a lot, because it could cause some technical problems. But I really do think this is a really important lesson. If we look at these concepts from the Dark Knight and the Joker, to help us understand ourselves in our own personal development. And even though it seems like these fictional characters and these not real situations, they are mimicking and mirroring what's going on in our psyche. And so, yeah, we're really excited to keep bringing these to you. We're going to talk about the ring — Lord of the Rings, not The Ring, the girl coming out of the movie, the TV — The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit next week, we're going to talk coming soon— we're going to be talking about Rob's favorite movie Dune, that's coming out. Then also my favorite movie, the new Wonder Woman that's coming out. So about the feminine archetype, the hero, heroine, hero's journey. And all the mythology in the Lord of the Rings and the symbolism is incredible. So I know you guys will be brushing up over the holidays on these movies and taking notes. So anyway, thank you for joining us today. And sorry about the little blip. It's the trickster’s fault. But we accept the challenge to go through it with grace.

Robert Maldonado  40:33

That's right. And if you have any ideas on movies or themes that you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

Debra Maldonado  40:41

So take care everyone. Have a great rest of your day and happy weekend.

Robert Maldonado  40:45

Stay well. 

Debra Maldonado  40:47 

Bye-bye.

OUTRO  40:48

Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions. And join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with Creative Mind Soul Session. See you next time.