Fear and Transformation - Myth of the Hero

As we conclude our series on myths and symbols, we examine the various hero tales and how death and rebirth are symbols of transformation. We consider what we can learn about these symbols as we undergo our own transformational life. In this episode we explore:

• The myths of rebirth through heroes such as Kaleesi & Jon Snow in the Game of Thrones, Jonah & the Whale in the bible, Batman, Dante’s descent into the underworld, Faust
• Why we resist the hero’s journey and stay stuck;
• Why the ego has to die in order for us to become our true self;
• The Dark Night of the Soul as a beginning of something new.

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Transcript

Fear and Transformation - Myth of the Hero

SPEAKERS

Debra Maldonado, Robert Maldonado

Robert Maldonado  00:01

Welcome back to Soul Sessions.

Debra Maldonado  00:06

With CreativeMind. What is today's topic?

Robert Maldonado  00:08

We're continuing our hero's journey, we’ve been doing a series on myths and how they relate to emotions, psychology, our work and life.

Debra Maldonado  00:23

Personal growth. We talked about shame. We talked about love, we talked about anger. Today, we're going to talk about everyone's favorite topic, fear, and transformation, and how it relates to the myth of the hero. Joseph Campbell was very popular in his hero's journey epic, bringing in all these myths. We are going to go deeper into that today. Because we're all on a journey. We're all on a hero or heroine’s journey in our life, whether we like it or not.

Robert Maldonado  00:59

Frank Herbert says in Dune, fear is the mind killer. We know fear is definitely the dream killer, or the dream stealer. If you let fear take root in your life, in your mind, it will rob you of all your potential.

Debra Maldonado  01:20

Let's talk about the hero's journey. I'm sure everyone's heard of the hero's journey, or the term actually. What is the hero's journey? How would you describe it?

Robert Maldonado  01:34

It is a metaphor for individuation. And in general, it's a metaphor for our journey through life. We're born into this great adventure that we call our life. We have to figure it out, we have to find our way, we face all these challenges and fears. The task for us is to face those challenges and fears, and persevere against all odds.

Debra Maldonado  02:08

Maybe I could talk about the stages of the hero's journey, the way we see it. There’s a lot of interpretations of it. This is our interpretation of it, that's a little more practical than going out and slaying the dragon because there aren't any dragons, except within our own mind. It all starts out first with the ordinary worlds where you're in your ordinary life, the conditioned experience of life from early on, we conditioned ourselves to basically survive in the world. It's really that survival mind doing what the herd mentality, the community, and the family, and society tells us we should be. The next stage is a calling. We have this calling to feel like there's more to life. Some of us have that calling when we're really young. Others are 70 years old and say “What the heck did I do with my life, I need to wake up.” It happens at different times. But typically, according to Jung, that calling happens around midlife. We have this midlife crisis in a way, where we start to question all the things that we built up in our life and say “Is this what I really want?” We have the calling, and then we have the refusal of the call. We refuse it because the ego loves our conditioned response. There's always that refusal.

Robert Maldonado  03:36

Let's go through the whole stages. Then we'll take one at a time and talk about how fear plays into each stage of the hero's journey.

Debra Maldonado  03:48

The ordinary world, the calling, and then the refusal of the call. Right there at the refusal of the call, there's a threshold. The threshold is basically moving beyond that ego voice that says “Don't go there”. We adventure out and try something new, start a new business, go for a relationship, start a workout routine, or transform our body, be healthy, some kind of change in our life, maybe get divorced from our partner like “I'm done with this” or move to another place. We decided to cross that threshold. When we crossed that threshold, we've made a commitment to change. Commitment is right after that threshold. Then after we make the commitment, there's a stage of confusion, then there's a stage where you meet your spiritual guide. That's a someone on the outside that can tell you, or shine the light for you and say “I've been on this journey. I know where you're going. I know why you're stuck. Let me bring more clarity to the situation that takes you out of that confusion.” Basically reminds you of your mission. Then there's the trial. Now you have this spiritual guide. In some hero's journeys, they give you special magical tools — a sword, or a shield, or magic ring, some kind of magical thing that helps you on your journey. The trial is you're facing this adversary. In movies and TV and hero's journeys that play out in stories and books, it's usually a monster or some kind of threat, the enemy. Through fighting that adversary, you get a treasure, you get some kind of reward, whether it's you get accolades from the city, you save the city, or you become a knight, or whatever that is. Then there's another threshold you go to, you got the reward, then you go over. It's called the return where you return back to your original spot, but not in the same place. Because you've gone on that journey. Now you've transformed, it's never the same. You returned home, and you see that home has changed for you.

Robert Maldonado  06:15

That's the completion of the hero's journey.

Debra Maldonado  06:22

A lot of people think it's just once in your life, but you go through these stages. The first one is big. Then there's always the cycles that you go through and to go to the next level.

Robert Maldonado  06:33

Let's start at the beginning. We're all born into the ordinary world, the village life, the society, culture that we are born into. Our first task is to adapt to that society, this world.

Debra Maldonado  06:56

Do what our parents expect, what the culture expects of us.

Robert Maldonado  07:00

That in itself is a challenge for human beings. Because we don't all start off with the same skills and intelligence. We all start off at different places with different obstacles. But we all manage, most of us have gotten to this point, we managed somehow to find a way. But the hero, certainly as a symbol, in Jung’s cense, and in the Joseph Campbell’s sense, is someone who is going to step outside, go beyond the ordinary world. Their calling is beyond the ordinary. It's a metaphor. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have to leave their hometown. But they have to leave the comfort of their conditioning. They're learning within that culture, within that family, within the society that they grew up in.

Debra Maldonado  08:05

I think for me moving to Colorado when I was 29 was a hero's journey, a stage of my hero's journey. Moving away from my family, all my friends, people that I've been around, that reflected my current identity, then stepping into meeting new friends, having a different life, different experiences, starting that process. But I was scared when I did it. I was like “I need to go back.” But it was too late. I had moved over there. Immediately, I was thinking I need to go back.

Robert Maldonado  08:40

We'd be fools if we weren't scared. Because it is scary to go into the unknown. What life is doing there, it's calling us to enter the unknown aspects of our mind, our psyche. The people that dare to go are the ones that end up transforming culture, transforming society, coming up with new ideas, new ways of doing things. It's an important function for human beings to have. Not everyone is called to do it, or is able to accept the call, maybe that's a better way of putting it. But those of us that are willing to accept the call, we go on our journey. The first obstacle or the first hurdle that we have to face is our own fear. Like you mentioned, our fear of the unknown, or fear of what's going to happen to me if I leave my happy home, my comfort zone.

Debra Maldonado  09:43

I see this with entrepreneurs, they start a business and the fears of “This is so different than my corporate job, I'm on my own, I'm my own boss”, that hesitation of “Did I make the right decision?” I think it's normal to have that. I think if people knew that it was normal, they would not buy into the fear as much. But to understand that fear is part of it, this idea that you're going to be fearless and live without fear is kind of dull. I mean, fear in itself is what we have to survive. It's a survival mechanism. But it's also energy. If we just let it basically direct us to stop, it could be powerful, make us powerless. But if we learn to channel that fear and use it as a motivation, everything can change, because we're also motivated by fear. If you think about it, you could either be afraid of the change, or you could fear the status quo. For me, I was like “I am not going to live my life, I'm not going back to the corporate world. I'm not going back to New Jersey. I got to keep pushing through.” Fear can actually either push you forward or keep you stuck.

Robert Maldonado  11:04

One of the reasons the hero refuses the call is because of fear. Again, what's going to happen to me? What's beyond this threshold that calling is asking me to cross? The threshold, psychologically it is entering what Jung calls the unconscious, the symbolic life, going deeper into yourself, asking that question “What am I really made out of? Am I ready to test myself by trying to do something different, something new, that is not expected of me in the society, that I am actually called to do because I have a dream, because I have a vision?”

Debra Maldonado  11:51

Like the Call of Duty without all the guns and violence. It's a call to spiritual duty, to live your full, you're here for a reason. Find out what that reason is.

Robert Maldonado  12:04

Often, we might take that step, even though we're terrified, we're frightened, we're afraid. But we know there's something powerful on the other side of that threshold, we go ahead and cross it.

Debra Maldonado  12:18

I always think of that saying, I don't know if anyone watched the Lord of the Rings, or the Hobbit, where Frodo and Sam are leaving the Shire, which is their ordinary worlds. He said “If I take the next step I'll be the furthest I've ever been from the Shire.” That's how we feel. To take that step, my life is going to change. As we take this step inward, once we realize what lies beneath us and what's within us, we can never be the same again. The ego’s terrified of change. We have to understand that it's not really scary except for the ego. Once we make that commitment, the confusion as another way fear shows up.

Robert Maldonado  13:08

Once we make the commitment to change, to undergo that transformation, to accept the dark night of the soul, the confusion sets in because we're in the unknown. We don't have a map, we don't have a way to navigate like we do in the outer sphere with regular knowledge. We know I can ask my teachers, I can go to the university, I can ask my parents, I can ask my grandparents, my friends.

Debra Maldonado  13:38

Feeling lost a little bit and doubting yourself in that confusion “Why did I cross that threshold?” It's too late. It's the point of no return. But you're still thinking about what if I just stayed where I was?

Robert Maldonado  14:01

There's longing for our comfort zone, that familiar. There's no going back at a certain point.

Debra Maldonado  14:09

It feels very discombobulating, especially when you do the inner work, like when we do shadow work. The identity that you relied upon so much for security, your survival kit that you use that seems to help you function in the world is thrown out the window, now you have to really cultivate “Who do I want to be?”, make conscious decisions. It's empowering but also scary because there's a tendency to want to rely on the old way you do things. Stepping into doing something new like speaking up, or trying something, or speaking in public that you have never done before, the ego’s doing its job. It's saying “Slow down.” Confusion is a state of fear that we get into and culture can create more fear. But if we want to really work with it, we have to say “I see what's happening”, you're conscious of the journey that you're on. You're saying “This is why I'm confused. It doesn't mean that I can't make it, it means that I just maybe don't know what the next step is yet.” Just go inside and get divine guidance, it's a place to go inward versus giving up or stopping. Because if you stopped at this point, it's almost better if you just never took the journey at all. You see people who go halfway and stop, they just stay in that confusion, sometimes for a long time, if they don't have a guide to take them on the way. Then the guide swoops in at the time the hero is like “I just want to give up.” You always see those stories “I can't take one more step.” Then that magical wizard appears or something comes in and offers guidance.

Robert Maldonado  16:02

Confusion is a state of chaos. Chaos cannot really exist for very long in the universe, there is really no pure chaos, there's always a tendency towards order, towards form, towards structure. Structure comes in now at a higher level, through a spiritual teaching, higher knowledge, a deeper understanding. It might be just a book that opens up a door for you, maybe a teacher, maybe a coach, maybe a mentor, maybe some just internal resource that you find within yourself that you say “This faith is way of understanding my confusion, my path that I'm on, that's guiding me from within.” It doesn't necessarily take one form, it can take many forms and a variety of forms.

Debra Maldonado  17:06

Actually a great spiritual guide or coach helps you cultivate that resource within yourself, not give you all the answers or come in and swoop and rescue you. They're really reflective of your own inner wisdom. Sometimes you can't find it within yourself, you need someone on the outside to reflect it back to you. That's all it is. It's not the source but a reflection. I always find they come at the right time. They always say that when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

Robert Maldonado  17:36

It's a metaphor for that stage of finding your way with higher knowledge, understanding. What do you need that knowledge for? It is for a trial that's coming up. You thought the trial was undergoing or starting the journey. But the trial hasn't really arrived until this point or after this point. Because now you really have to face your shadow, your deepest fear. What's behind door number three?

Debra Maldonado  18:14

The trial is facing really your deepest fear. It's not an external fear. It appears external sometimes, but really is your own deepest fear, your ego’s deepest fear, and being able to face it. That's what's going to give you the treasure, which is the next step.

Robert Maldonado  18:34

You're jumping the gun, because here in a lot of hero myths, the hero’s not sure they can make it. The stakes have to be real.

Debra Maldonado  18:49

For real transformation, it's not fluffing it away and bulldozing your way through.

Robert Maldonado  18:55

Or just pretending to face these things. It has to be a real dangerous situation for yourself as a soul, as an individual. The stakes are very high. You have to use all your resources, all your knowledge, all your skills. That's why often in the stories, the hero at this point is given magical weapons. Psychologically, you could think of them as understandings of techniques to work with your mind, so that the fear doesn't overwhelm you. Or the anger doesn't take control of you. You're able to manage those things and face that big challenge. That is the shadow, the real transformation.

Debra Maldonado  19:46

The treasure is that the payoff is so high when you face that fear. I'm terrified of speaking in public, I have anxiety before I talk. Then after the talk I feel so great but I went through and faced that fear. Sometimes it's so unconscious. Most of us that do public speaking, then you're on the other side of it “That was such a high level, can I do it again?” But the treasure is you cultivating the courage. Once you face that scary thing in yourself, whatever you're really afraid of, nothing can stop you anymore, you become unstoppable.

Robert Maldonado  20:30

Often in a lot of the epic stories of the hero, the hero has to die at this point. They actually lose their life, meaning they lose their own persona. The person that took off from the village, from the Shire is gone. They don't exist anymore.

Debra Maldonado  20:52

From Game of Thrones, I'm such a huge fan, Khaleesi had to burn in the fire and be reborn, become the dragon, find her dragon. Jon Snow, he was a hero. He had to physically die — sorry, spoilers — and be reborn as someone else, not the bastard, but someone else, not part of this Nightwatch, for his journey. Sometimes there's an actual death of the person and rebirth in that. Other times, it's the death of the ego in that person, the old self dies, like Jonah in the whale, he had to go into the whale and then basically come out, come to terms with his fears.

Robert Maldonado  21:47

For him, the calling was from God to go and preach in a certain city. He refused. He thought he can run away from this. But in running away, God calls up a great storm on the ship he's fleeing on. The sailors get a sense of what's happening, they throw him overboard. When they throw him overboard, he is swallowed by the whale. It's gestation, a second gestation. The old person is dead, the new person is being prepared for the new life.

Debra Maldonado  22:28

There's always a theme of going into the underworld or going into a cave. This is the unconscious, the metaphor for going within ourselves, to the dark places within ourselves. Campbell says the cave we dare to enter contains the treasure that we seek. That is always in all these myths, even Batman. He was this scared boy, his parents died, he falls into a well with these bats. He comes out transformed by the bats, the bats transformed him. We have all these stories, and this is where they come from. They come from this archetypal theme. Human life is that we all have to undergo this, you have to go through our challenges and face that dark night of the soul. For us to really live a full life, the ego has to die, the ego has to have some kind of transformation.

Robert Maldonado  23:27

Let's talk about the dark night of the soul because this is an important topic for a lot of people. A lot of our students tell us “I can definitely relate to the dark night of the soul.” It is the way we experience it individually. It is a depression, a loss of meaning in our life, a loss of feeling for the work we're doing, for what we created in the past. But it's an important aspect of the work. Because it's teaching us about the temporary nature of this life. If we are attached to the things we create as ego, as persona, we're missing the point, we're focusing on the wrong thing, we're thinking the external structures of society are going to give me happiness and meaning. They can only do that temporarily. If we are thinking that's what is going to establish my soul or my sense of the true self in life, those things can not give us that solid ground, the rock to build our life on.

Debra Maldonado  24:48

Jim Carrey famously said “I wish everyone would have tons of money and fame and realize that's not it.” I think that's really important. A lot of people think “When I get this, I'll be happy, when I get that I'll be happy. When I find my partner, I'll be happy.” It'll never be enough. That's just the hungry ego. What we really truly crave is our divine expression of ourselves, not just ego collecting excess material in the world or status in the world. There's something much deeper, much more profound that we can experience in life.

Robert Maldonado  25:24

We see it in the story of the Buddha very clearly. Here's a man who had everything. He was a prince, very wealthy, highly educated. The dark night of the soul for him came when he had to leave all that, even his family, his son and wife. He had to leave that if he really wanted to find himself, find that true self in him. He undergoes this transformation. First of all, he almost kills himself trying to do these very difficult ascetic practices that the yogis were teaching at that time. But he finally came to the realization of his true self, then he is able to go back and teach others as the Buddha, as somebody completely different, no longer tied to that identity of the prince, Gautama, but a new person.

Debra Maldonado  26:24

Even changing the name. Also if you think of the Gita, the Bhagavad Gita, where in the first chapter Arjuna is the hero and Krishna is there. Arjuna refuses to fight, he goes “How do you fight a battle you can't win? If I win, that means my family that I'm fighting is going to die. If I lose, that means I'm going to die, and other part of my family is going to die.” This is a fruitless battle. He drops his arrows, just sits down and refuses to fight, this is refusal. But then Krishna came to assist. The wisdom of the Gita in the whole story, before they even started, the battle was all about non attachment, higher wisdom. The hero's journey goes way back thousands of years from the Gita.

Robert Maldonado  27:18

And it's still with us. Jung's work was about keeping those traditions alive, but in a psychological model, in a psychological way, so that we could still continue to understand what is the psyche up to when we undergo these incredible experiences. It's not just about figuring out our social life. That's an important piece, of course, we need to work and we need to take care of a family and all that stuff. But we also need to understand a deeper inclinations. What do we need as real individuals, as real living beings that are having this human experience? Part of it is this ability to transform ourselves continuously.

Debra Maldonado  28:11

I think one of the main things about the hero's journey is really the transformation the hero goes through. The reason why we refuse the call is because we're not aware of our power yet. We're not aware of our strength and courage and potential. Of course, it would make sense to say “I can't do that. That's not for me. That's for other people.” But the hero transforms, the hero doesn't realize in most of these myths he's part God, doesn't realize he has this power within him. Through his journey, through facing these obstacles, it pulls out the power, it pulls out their greatness. Greatness is not born within us, we have to find it within us. We can't just find it by thinking “I'm great. Now I'm gonna think positive in front of the mirror in the bathroom.” That's great but what we want to do is go through that battle within ourselves, and then through that transformation. It's like alchemy happens, this transformation happens in your psyche, where that old self no longer serves you and loses its benefits. This other part of you can be free to emerge. But until you invite that other part in, you're only going to be living on that ego level. I love that idea that you don't even know what your potential is until you actually take the journey. Like Frodo had no idea, he was a little hobbit who had no idea of his power and the fears and challenges he had to face. Many great stories of heroes. What about Dante's Inferno?

Robert Maldonado  29:55

Dante is a classic one of descend into the unknown world, to the very heart of the shadow essentially. And coming back up.

Debra Maldonado  30:09

Re-emerging as a new person, reemerging transformed.

Robert Maldonado  30:14

He has a guide through the underworld, which is Beatrice, she is like his anima, what Jung would call the Anima, his soul guiding him on that journey. It's a metaphor of this transformation. It’s very ancient, it goes back thousands and thousands of years, but it keeps showing up, keeps coming back. Because that is essentially what we are here to do in this world, a purification of our mind. If we don't face that challenge of facing the dragon, the fear, we are not able to transform, because we're only playing small, we're only playing at spiritual work or at spiritual transformation, and not really doing it.

Debra Maldonado  31:12

We're pretending to be spiritual, but we're not really living. Part of it is facing, it's not imagining figures of light. Jung says that you have to make the darkness conscious, you have to be aware of our human nature and not feel like you're above human fears and insecurities and all the things that we as human beings have to deal with. But we have this persona that says “No, I got it all together.” That pressure of keeping that up, we have to come to terms with that within ourselves. Because eventually it's going to come knocking, whether we choose to take the dark night consciously or it happens to us.

Robert Maldonado  31:51

We know that society is made up of individuals, you and I and all these people around us. If we do our work, if the individual does their work and undergoes this transformation, it will change society, it will transform the world essentially.

Debra Maldonado  32:13

Think about the pandemic for the past two years. It really made a lot of us go through a dark night of the soul because we're not in the social environment we're used to being in, some people are very isolated and alone. The jobs that people have, the great resignation, people are thinking “Do I want to go back to that mean boss and commute? Why was I commuting two hours a day to go to a job when I could just be sitting at home on a computer, it's the same thing as a cubicle?” I think it really stirred up our culture in a good way. There's a lot of bad things that happened with the death and sickness but as far as psychologically, I think we were on a trajectory that something needed to intervene. When these things happen, we have to see what's the opportunity here. What's the opportunity in my life? When this is over — hopefully it's over in a matter of weeks, we'll be going back to a little bit normalcy — are we going to go back to how we used to be? That's the question. Or are you going to use this challenge to transcend and go to the next level in your life?

Robert Maldonado  33:22

We’re living in very special times, epic times. Epic times require us to step up, to use all our knowledge, from psychology, from philosophy, from pathology, to face these challenges. If we don't, if we just say “We'll figure it out with the old way of doing things”, we're missing the opportunity to transform.

Debra Maldonado  33:52

On a personal level, I moved to Colorado when I was 29, I was like “I'm on my journey, I'm gonna find some new career, I don't want to be in marketing anymore.” It took me 10 years of refusal. I was doing some investigation, I was dabbling, I was trying new things. But I never really fully made the leap until I was 39 and finally left the corporate world forever. It was like “Why didn't I do this sooner?” But the ego is so powerful. Those of you who feel stuck, it's normal to feel this way. I think one of the questions you should ask is which fear is greater, the fear of the unknown or the fear of the known, of just remaining the same, the fear of remaining in that status quo? If you feel like you're that fear of the unknown, I’d move the energy to “What would happen if nothing changed in my life?” Like I said, 10 years went by, I finally stepped into what I was wanting to do with my life. What if that was for you, what if that took another 10 years? What if it's 20 years? What if you don't ever make that choice out of fear? Then if you can get to that, that may motivate you. You'll be motivated by fear versus demotivated by fear. It's what you do with it, not what it is in itself.

Robert Maldonado  35:18

On the practical level, we can't run away from our calling. Especially if we really been called, like Jonah. I cannot run, I can’t hide somewhere, we can't. Because everywhere you go, your mind is there. Your mind is what is asking for transformation. It'll trip you up. The Upanishads say something like this “If you do not befriend the mind, the self, the deeper consciousness within you, it becomes an enemy, it acts as an enemy towards you”, meaning the mind will turn against you. We have to deal with it. It's not so much that it's trying to hurt you. But it's that it's going to try to get your attention at whatever cause. Often we mistake those things for pathology, for accidents or problems, but it's actually our mind insisting that we pay attention to it.

Debra Maldonado  36:27

Good metaphor is a boiling pot, the steam just builds up, you have to release that lid or it's gonna pop anyway, so it's better to release the lid gently versus being tossed into it. For me, there's the time when I left the corporate world, my relationship fell apart, I was lost, the house I lived in, I had to change. It all happened at once. A lot of people have told me stories like that, their whole life turned upside down. I feel like I said to myself “Okay, now I can begin. Now my life can begin.” What usually appears as an ending or a tragedy is the best thing that happened to us. It's an opportunity for us. It's meant to be disrupted because the status quo can no longer be tolerated. There's a wisdom within us that does not want the status quo. It's always pushing forward. That steam is going to eventually just keep pushing. You answer that calling we're born with it.

Robert Maldonado  37:37

Working with fear and recognizing a fear and being able to confront it, to move towards it. We're not saying be fearless completely. No one is completely fearless unless they're fools. But to be able to move towards it, to recognize it, this is part of my mind, this is an aspect of my life. It's an important piece, if I move towards it, something's going to open up. That's the practical approach right there, we start to understand fear and hesitation and resistance as a natural part of the process. Then we start to move towards it, to open it up, to accept it.

Debra Maldonado  38:23

Instead of running away from it. Facing our fear makes us stronger, more courageous, more powerful. And it transforms us. Great topic today. We are going to be moving into a new topic the next four episodes. What are we talking about, Rob?

Robert Maldonado  38:44

We want to talk about trauma and resiliency because it's such an important topic for coaches, for some of you therapists out there and psychologists. We want to start to reframe trauma in a resiliency model, meaning we have strengths. The things that happened to us that throw us off balance and stay with us in our mind, we need to deal with them. We never advise to ignore the difficult things in life. But we can certainly focus on them in the sense of our strengths, not so much as the wounds that they cause.

Debra Maldonado  39:28

I like to see it as the event happens to us. The response that our mind gives is a sign of a healthy mind. It found a way to cope and survive. Maybe it's just being hyper vigilant in certain situations. But that's a sign of a healthy mind. It's not a dysfunctional mind. The mind is supposed to do that, it's supposed to protect us. How do we look at those mechanisms the mind has created to help us deal with difficult situations in a positive way, in a resilient model and say “If you could survive that, you could survive anything.” Look how powerful you are. Instead of seeing yourself as “I went through a hard time” or “I had a difficult past, and I'm weaker now because of it”, actually we're stronger because of it. Your mind is probably stronger than someone who never had a difficulty, just like we talked about the hero's journey. That's what's the topic is going to be about the next four episodes. It is going to be very interesting. I can't wait to share it with you. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. We hope to see you next week. If you are watching us on YouTube, feel free to subscribe to our channel, we would love to have you. Also put a comment below, ask us a question, something about the hero's journey, we'd love to answer it. If you are listening to our podcast, Spotify, Apple iTunes, please subscribe. If you feel called, leave an honest review, we'd love to hear it. Take care everyone.

Robert Maldonado  41:00

Thanks for watching. See you next time.

Debra Maldonado  41:02

Have a great day and happy January.